Should the P-51 with no tail wheel lock be more difficult than Spitfire/I-16?

P-51 has a wide wheel base compared to both Spit and I-16. It also has longer distance between main wheels and tail wheel. Seems it should be easier.

It swerves very quickly. It's quite difficult.

The only way to test this is by advancing the stick a little forward (to disengage tail wheel lock). By doing this I don't get the stick full back that helps stabilize the first few seconds of the run.

It seems to me the P-51 is a lot less longitudinally stable than the Spitfire. Once getting a little speed with the Spitfire I'm home free. It's stable at maybe 40-50 mph (without any attempt to measure).

The P-51 needs to exceed 100 mph before it's 'safe' and longitudinally stable (again without any attempt to measure).

Am I imagining this?

P-51 has a wide wheel base compared to both Spit and I-16. It also has longer distance between main wheels and tail wheel. Seems it should be easier.

 

It swerves very quickly. It's quite difficult.

 

The only way to test this is by advancing the stick a little forward (to disengage tail wheel lock). By doing this I don't get the stick full back that helps stabilize the first few seconds of the run.

 

It seems to me the P-51 is a lot less longitudinally stable than the Spitfire. Once getting a little speed with the Spitfire I'm home free. It's stable at maybe 40-50 mph (without any attempt to measure).

The P-51 needs to exceed 100 mph before it's 'safe' and longitudinally stable (again without any attempt to measure).

 

Am I imagining this?

At speeds above 100 mph you are airborne,

If you want something hard try bf 109 at full power w/o tail lock.

At high power you have full control through rudder from very beginning of the take off in spitfire.

At speeds above 100 mph you are airborne,

If you want something hard try bf 109 at full power w/o tail lock.

Since the ground behavior of the 109 was changed it isn´t that hard anymore without tailwheel lock.

Land / TO with unlocked wheel isn´t much of a problem.

If you want something hard try bf 109 at full power w/o tail lock.

Tried that before. Tried again now. It's easy, very similar to with tail lock. Only difference, without tail lock, a little right brake is required.

Full power? Usually Do 1.4 ATA. Easier with MW stoff and 1.8 ATA. Maybe because it accelerate faster, or maybe more prop wind over rudder.

Put the 109 on the carrier in first attempt just now. Broke the prop but as they say, if you walk from it ...

Tried that before. Tried again now. It's easy, very similar to with tail lock. Only difference, without tail lock, a little right brake is required.

 

Full power? Usually Do 1.4 ATA. Easier with MW stoff and 1.8 ATA. Maybe because it accelerate faster, or maybe more prop wind over rudder.

 

Put the 109 on the carrier in first attempt just now. Broke the prop but as they say, if you walk from it ...

who said about brakes ?? no brakes no tail lock,

Using brakes is just cheating, and ofc it will be easy with brakes.

Landing on carrier in bf 109 isn't difficult same as spitfire both planes glide nice, but fw190 and p-51 they like to sink rapidly if speed drop too much, fw190 is the king when your speed drops it sinks like brick.

I was just pointing out rudder efficiency at low speed spitfire excellent, p-51 and fw 190 average, bf109 non :)

Take off in fw 190, p-51 and spitfire full power 100% controllable with rudder throttle slammed max.

Bf 109 good luck with only rudder.

Yes, I saw the interview with the ex WW2 109 pilot that DCS consulted with in the long takeoff/landing threads. Brakes was routinely used when required. Not an issue of cheating I figured.

Right brakes tapping was used in RL for 109.

I know that. I was only pointing out that bf 109 rudder is insufficient.

When i see bf 109 tail it looks a like it is from different plane.

I wasn't saying that you can't use brakes or it is forbidden to use.

My point is when you use rapid full power in bf 109 without brakes you will end up in bush.

It is only plane which require brakes,

But if you have long airfield you can easy take off w/o using brakes, you just need to be easy on power:)

The fact that pilot have to use brakes in bf109 in high power t/o speaks for itself.

The most difficult take off for me in DCS is FW190 D9, full power t/o is easy, but low power 1.2-1.3 ata is disaster for me :P fw190d9 acceleration at 1.3 ata is very very low

Right brakes tapping was used in RL for 109.

until you have rudder authority, that's all you can do(as far as the 109 goes), and make sure you are pointed down the runway straight in the first place. for the P-51, the center of gravity is much forward compared to the 109, so the ground handling characteristics are totally different. plus the tail wheel is locked in the neutral stick position in the P-51, in the fw-190 you must have the stick well aft of neutral to lock the tail wheel, this confuses a lot of people. then there is the spit... the tail wheel does not lock, and it gets rudder authority almost instantly...

the mustang might be heavier however you also have to take into account the size of the rudder and its place in the airflow if you're not using brakes or a tail lock, also pushing the stick forwards will lift the tail and make it lighter and easier for it to swing around.

the spitfire will run away and ground loop if you try to counter it without brakes at certain speeds.

you have to take into account general tailwheel flying techniques as well as wind will affect how fast the tail swings around, furthermore are you using aliaron? as this can also have an effect.

just because a gear track is wider does not mean that under the right circumstance it cant be as deadly as that with a more narrow track.

imagine taxiing with a crosswind coming right to left at say 30 degrees factor. normally you taxi aliaron into wind and stick back when in a headwind. however seeing as you call for not using a tailwheel lock, in the mustang this requires forward stick to unlock it. the tail will become lighter and less effective because of not having as much pressure on the ground.

now, if you were to have into wind aliaron it should speed up the turn rate. once it runs away you have the combined weight of the aircraft and prop rpm factor dragging you in that direction.

The rudder wakes up on most of the warbirds with enough throttle. Get some airflow from the engine. The spitfire is noticeably easier to takeoff at +12 or more - and the Mustang is incredibly stable with the trim set right.

These things bite if you're too timid with them.

Experimented some more. Found that unlocked tail wheel takeoff 'probably' isn't terribly difficult. What was difficult was having to balance the elevator a little down to make sure tail wheel is unlocked and not have added longitudinal stability helped by elevator full up on initial run.

Was a little surprised to find that trim moves the elevator on power change with joystick immobile. In real life a "servo tab" wouldn't/doesn't do that. But without force feedback, this is, of course, how DCS had to model it. "Servo tab" type:

A short video. Note, max back trim, hold brakes and power up will move elevator up despite me not even touching the stick. Elevator going up locks the tail wheel (which I didn't want in my experiment).

So for my experiment I had zero elevator trim to have elevator not move at all unless I moved it with the joystick.

Takeoff with tail wheel unlocked. Zero elevator trim, 6 degree right rudder trim. Note, I keep wiggling the rudder (watch the tail wheel) to show first the tail wheel being locked (and moving with rudder [21 sec]) and then, moving stick forward a little (watch elevator), tail wheel gets unlocked (not moving with rudder [25 sec]). Got a little OCD with the rudder wiggle, sorry about that. Similar to I-16 or 109, before releasing brakes I put full right rudder to counter initial left swing.

A normal takeoff, again rudder wiggle to show that tail wheel is locked and verify that tail wheel does move with rudder during take off.

The rudder wakes up on most of the warbirds with enough throttle. Get some airflow from the engine. The spitfire is noticeably easier to takeoff at +12 or more - and the Mustang is incredibly stable with the trim set right.

 

 

 

These things bite if you're too timid with them.

Unless it is bf 109 than you have almost no rudder at beginning.

P-51 has a wide wheel base compared to both Spit and I-16. It also has longer distance between main wheels and tail wheel. Seems it should be easier.

 

It swerves very quickly. It's quite difficult.

 

The only way to test this is by advancing the stick a little forward (to disengage tail wheel lock). By doing this I don't get the stick full back that helps stabilize the first few seconds of the run.

 

It seems to me the P-51 is a lot less longitudinally stable than the Spitfire. Once getting a little speed with the Spitfire I'm home free. It's stable at maybe 40-50 mph (without any attempt to measure).

The P-51 needs to exceed 100 mph before it's 'safe' and longitudinally stable (again without any attempt to measure).

 

Am I imagining this?

Takeoff assist can make it harder. Make sure takeoff assistance is set to zero in the settings for all your planes.