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Old 05-22-2020, 12:55 PM   #251
S.E.Bulba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
1. Fragmentation is has not ever modeled in DCS, until in the future when they get the new damage models in…
TL;DR

I don't speak English, so I won't even try to guess the machine translation of the verbose full-page text.

Once again, I am forced to repeat the fact that if you have something to evidence-based tell about the work of the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system or Vikhr ATGM, then you better contact the ED developers directly, because they speak English. If you don't have anything like that, then it makes no sense to waste time here, where no one will read you anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Delivered already to developers by others, manufacturer confirmed data that President-S has as well RF detection and jamming capabilities.

You don't need to worry about that, as it is not my task to explain to you anything.
Don't get flurried, I am not worried at all by the empty words that some writers on the forum present with a mysteriously meaningful look.
Spoiler:
Original in Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
1. Fragmentation is has not ever modeled in DCS, until in the future when they get the new damage models in…
TL;DR

Я не говорю по-английски, поэтому я даже не буду пытаться разгадывать машинный перевод многословного текста на всю страницу.

Ещё раз вынужден повторить то, что если у Вас есть что обоснованно рассказать о работе реальных КАПК «Шквал» или ПТУР «Вихрь», то Вам лучше непосредственно обратиться к разработчикам ED, т.к. они говорят по-английски. Если ничего подобного у Вас нет, то соответственно и нет смысла впустую тратить время здесь, где читать Вас всё равно никто не будет.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Delivered already to developers by others, manufacturer confirmed data that President-S has as well RF detection and jamming capabilities.

You don't need to worry about that, as it is not my task to explain to you anything.
Не волнуйтесь, меня совершенно не беспокоят пустые слова, которые с загадочно-многозначительным видом преподносят некоторые форумные сочинители.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:08 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.E.Bulba View Post
TL;DR
I don't speak English, so I won't even try to guess the machine translation of the verbose full-page text.
Then I repeat, don't challenge if you don't understand.

Quote:
Once again, I am forced to repeat the fact that if you have something to evidence-based tell about the work of the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system or Vikhr ATGM, then you better contact the ED developers directly, because they speak English. If you don't have anything like that, then it makes no sense to waste time here, where no one will read you anyway.
Then again do not challenge when you don't know what you are talking about.
I asked that what evidence you have that Shkval is not a contrast based tracking system, and you dance around the question. If you want to be ignorant, then be such...

As you can't answer for a simple question, and you can't understand the question itself, it is no use for you to participate to English side.

It is clear that Shkval doesn't model correctly anything really, but you ignore all the evidence for that. It becomes obvious for anyone who uses it long enough that DCS is not capable simulate it to this Maybe in future when new FLIR and all gets implement in overhaul of optical systems.

Quote:
Don't get flurried, I am not worried at all by the empty words that some writers on the forum present with a mysteriously meaningful look.
Yes you do....
And that is it.
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:50 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Then I repeat, don't challenge if you don't understand…
Man, what are you talking about? I asked you a question that you never answered. What kind of "challenge" are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
… Then again do not challenge when you don't know what you are talking about.
I asked that what evidence you have that Shkval is not a contrast based tracking system, and you dance around the question. If you want to be ignorant, then be such...

As you can't answer for a simple question, and you can't understand the question itself, it is no use for you to participate to English side.

It is clear that Shkval doesn't model correctly anything really, but you ignore all the evidence for that. It becomes obvious for anyone who uses it long enough that DCS is not capable simulate it to this Maybe in future when new FLIR and all gets implement in overhaul of optical systems…
  1. I gave figures of dynamic restrictions for the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system, taken from the real manual of the Su-25T. After which I said that the developers of ED repeatedly stated that the Shkval automatic TV sighting system was modeled in the game close to real.
  2. You started to prove to me that this is not so.
  3. I asked you if you had experience with the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system?
  4. You did not answer the question. Instead, you began to write me messages consisting of a thousand words.
  5. I suggested that you make these inferences to English-speaking ED developers.
  6. Instead, you continue to prove to me something, tirelessly scribbling messages, the size of a million words.
  7. I told you that I was not going to unravel the machine translation of your multi-volume works, and once again advised you to turn to the developers with your arguments.
  8. Now you are proudly telling me about some of my "challenges" and suggesting that I shut up.
Man, do you have nothing more to do in life than writing full-page texts on the forum? Since I have never had any experience with the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system, and I don't know how really the correct operation of the image-storage device of his teleautomaton is. Therefore, I do not presume to judge how realistic this system is simulated in the game… unlike you, although it seems that you also do not have such information.

Therefore, I once again ask you to answer one simple question that I already asked at the very beginning, and which caused such a stormy reaction from you.

Do you have experience with the real Shkval? Man, just answer me, YES or NO?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
… Yes you do....
And that is it.
Oh well.
Spoiler:
Original in Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Then I repeat, don't challenge if you don't understand…
Приятель, Вы вообще о чём говорите? Я задал Вам вопрос, на который Вы так и не ответили. О каком «оспаривании» Вы ведёте речь?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
… Then again do not challenge when you don't know what you are talking about.
I asked that what evidence you have that Shkval is not a contrast based tracking system, and you dance around the question. If you want to be ignorant, then be such...

As you can't answer for a simple question, and you can't understand the question itself, it is no use for you to participate to English side.

It is clear that Shkval doesn't model correctly anything really, but you ignore all the evidence for that. It becomes obvious for anyone who uses it long enough that DCS is not capable simulate it to this Maybe in future when new FLIR and all gets implement in overhaul of optical systems…
  1. Я привёл цифры динамических ограничений для реального КАПК «Шквал», взятого из реального руководства Су-25Т. Потом я сказал, что разработчики ED неоднократно заявляли, что комплекс «Шквал» смоделирован в игре близко к реальному.
  2. Вы начали мне доказывать, что это не так.
  3. Я спросил Вас, имели ли Вы опыт работы с реальным КАПК «Шквал»?
  4. Вы не ответили на вопрос. Вместо этого, Вы начали писать мне сообщения, состоящие из тысячи слов.
  5. Я предложил Вам обратиться с этими умозаключениями к разработчикам ED, говорящим на английском языке.
  6. Вместо этого, Вы продолжаете мне доказывать что-то, без устали строча сообщения, величиной уже в миллион слов.
  7. Я сказал Вам, что не собираюсь разгадывать машинный перевод Ваших многотомных трудов, и ещё раз посоветовал Вам обратиться со своими рассуждениями к разработчикам.
  8. Теперь Вы с гордым видом, рассказываете мне про какой-то мой «вызов», и предлагаете мне заткнуться.
Парень, Вам в жизни нечем больше заняться, кроме как написанием на форуме текстов на всю страницу? Поскольку я никогда не имел опыта работы с реальным КАПК «Шквал», и не знаю насколько в действительности является корректной работа образо-запоминающего устройства его телеавтомата. Поэтому я не берусь судить, насколько реалистично данный комплекс смоделирован в игре… в отличие от Вас, хотя судя по всему, Вы также не обладаете такой информацией.

Поэтому я ещё раз прошу мне ответить на один простой вопрос, который я уже задавал в самом начале, и который вызвал такую бурную Вашу реакцию.

Вы имеете опыт работы с реальным «Шквалом»? Парень, просто ответьте мне, ДА или НЕТ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
… Yes you do....
And that is it.
Ну-ну.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:23 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.E.Bulba View Post
Man, what are you talking about? I asked you a question that you never answered. What kind of "challenge" are you talking about?
I asked you first that what you think the Shkval tracking system is. You do not answer it but demand me to answer to you first.

Quote:
  1. I gave figures of dynamic restrictions for the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system, taken from the real manual of the Su-25T. After which I said that the developers of ED repeatedly stated that the Shkval automatic TV sighting system was modeled in the game close to real.
  1. Where is that manual translated?

    Quote:
  2. You started to prove to me that this is not so.
  3. I asked is that Shkval a contrast based tracking or what, as it doesn't work as contrast based tracking does and proved it to you. If you do not accept it, then either it is using some other tracking method than contrast based, why I asked from you what it is using if not contrast based.

    Quote:
  4. I asked you if you had experience with the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system?
  5. Irrelevant, as I know how contrast based tracking systems work in their functionality. What DCS doesn't have and what is the problem.
    So I ask again, if Shkval does not use contrast based tracking, what it then uses?

    Quote:
  6. You did not answer the question. Instead, you began to write me messages consisting of a thousand words.
  7. You have not answered my question I asked first. And when I answer, you don't read and demand an answer.

    Quote:
  8. I suggested that you make these inferences to English-speaking ED developers.
  9. You said that ED says Shkval is close to real, I said that it can't be trusted by anyone who uses Shkval in DCS because it doesn't have a contrast based tracking system it should have. To you prove it wrong, you must provide material that what other method Shkval uses for tracking than contrast.
    You then made ad hominem by demanding to know that have I used a real Shkval, what is irrelevant information.

    Quote:
  10. Instead, you continue to prove to me something, tirelessly scribbling messages, the size of a million words.
  11. So you have zero understanding how contrast based tracking works. That came clear now.

    Quote:
  12. I told you that I was not going to unravel the machine translation of your multi-volume works, and once again advised you to turn to the developers with your arguments.
  13. It doesn't matter what I talk to developers, you brought up that Shkval is close to real and thats it. And I asked you that you can't be serious if you know how contrast based tracking systems work?

    Quote:
  14. Now you are proudly telling me about some of my "challenges" and suggesting that I shut up.
I don't suggest anything, I clearly said that if you do not answer to my question and you do not read what is written to you as answer, your efforts to discuss doesn't help.

Quote:
Man, do you have nothing more to do in life than writing full-page texts on the forum?
Sorry, I don't have time to write short. And if you continue ad hominems I report you.

Quote:
Since I have never had any experience with the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system, and I don't know how really the correct operation of the image-storage device of his teleautomaton is. Therefore, I do not presume to judge how realistic this system is simulated in the game… unlike you, although it seems that you also do not have such information.
So you really do not have any information how contrast based tracking systems operate, or what real Shkval does work. So all you do is make ad hominems and draw to authority if you don't like answers.

Quote:
Therefore, I once again ask you to answer one simple question that I already asked at the very beginning, and which caused such a stormy reaction from you.

Do you have experience with the real Shkval? Man, just answer me, YES or NO?
Again irrelevant question and ad hominem attack.

I again ask the same question as in the begin, do you have any knowledge how contrast based tracking systems work, and do you know is the Shkval contrast based tracking?
If you know it is, and how contrast based tracking works then you will know that Shkval in KA-50 is not anywhere near "close to real".

It is super simple thing.

We are talking contrast detection system, not about target recognition and identification. We do not neither talk about laser spot tracking or radar tracking or anything like that. Unless you can provide evidence that Shkval tracking is not contrast based.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:35 PM   #255
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:01 PM   #256
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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    I asked you first that what you think the Shkval tracking system is. You do not answer it but demand me to answer to you first…
    Do not compose. Or quote me your message in which you asked me about it.

    You said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    Please. Anyone who has any experience with KA-50 will quickly learn in the few hours that Shkval doesn't work "close to real" at all…
    I asked you:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by S.E.Bulba View Post
    … Do you have experience with the real Shkval?..
  2. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Where is that manual translated?..
    It is not translated. In the Russian segment of the Internet, there is only a reprinted part of the complete manual of the Su-25T. In this part there is also a section devoted to the operation of the Shkval automatic TV sighting system.
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … I asked is that Shkval a contrast based tracking or what, as it doesn't work as contrast based tracking does and proved it to you. If you do not accept it, then either it is using some other tracking method than contrast based, why I asked from you what it is using if not contrast based…
    I repeat, do not compose. I asked you, but you declined to answer. After that, you started talking to yourself, inventing some supposedly my "arguments", and yourself answering them.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    <…>
    Quote:
    Do you have experience with the real Shkval?
    So your argument is that because anyone can detect that KA-50 in DCS doesn't have contrast lock capabilities that the system is by specifications primary mean to lock targets for tracking, that one would need real world experiences with it, to know it doesn't have a contrast lock capabilities?..
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Irrelevant, as I know how contrast based tracking systems work in their functionality. What DCS doesn't have and what is the problem.
    So I ask again, if Shkval does not use contrast based tracking, what it then uses?..
    This is of great importance. Since you do not have any technical documentation for the Shkval automatic TV sighting system, and also do not have any real experience with this old Soviet sighting system. You do not know the characteristics of its optical system, the threshold characteristics of the light filters of the contrast system, etc.

    All words about knowing how the color contrast system works in general, without knowing the technical characteristics of a particular system, is nothing more than ordinary blah blah blah.
  5. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … You have not answered my question I asked first. And when I answer, you don't read and demand an answer…
    You, too, stubbornly did not answer my question. In addition, you led the discussion with yourself, since I did not participate in it at all.
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … So you have zero understanding how contrast based tracking works. That came clear now…
    Based on what you have made such a conclusion? Do you think others are dumber than you?
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … It doesn't matter what I talk to developers, you brought up that Shkval is close to real and thats it. And I asked you that you can't be serious if you know how contrast based tracking systems work?..
    In my opinion, in your attempts to evade the answer, you simply simply got lost in the chronology of your conversation with yourself.
  8. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … So you really do not have any information how contrast based tracking systems operate, or what real Shkval does work. So all you do is make ad hominems and draw to authority if you don't like answers…
    Thus, you also have no idea how the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system works. All your theoretical fabrications are nothing more than unsubstantiated arguments of a theoretical couch-based "expert".
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Again irrelevant question and ad hominem attack…
    Again you shy away from the answer. In addition, all your unfounded accusations are nothing more than demagogic tricks.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … I again ask the same question as in the begin, do you have any knowledge how contrast based tracking systems work, and do you know is the Shkval contrast based tracking?
    If you know it is, and how contrast based tracking works then you will know that Shkval in KA-50 is not anywhere near "close to real".

    It is super simple thing.

    We are talking contrast detection system, not about target recognition and identification. We do not neither talk about laser spot tracking or radar tracking or anything like that. Unless you can provide evidence that Shkval tracking is not contrast based.
    I see no reason to continue the conversation if you do not provide any technical documents on the real Shkval automatic TV sighting system. Because I already told you that chatter about how it should work in theory, without the specific light-contrast characteristics of its optical system, is nothing more than a fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
Spoiler:
Original in Russian
  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    I asked you first that what you think the Shkval tracking system is. You do not answer it but demand me to answer to you first…
    Не сочиняйте. Либо процитируйте мне своё сообщение, в котором вы меня об этом спросили.

    Вы сказали:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    Please. Anyone who has any experience with KA-50 will quickly learn in the few hours that Shkval doesn't work "close to real" at all…
    Я спросил Вас:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by S.E.Bulba View Post
    … Вы имеете опыт работы с реальным «Шквалом»?..
  2. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Where is that manual translated?..
    Оно не переведено. В русском сегменте интернета имеется лишь перепечатанная часть от полного руководства Су-25Т. В этой части есть и раздел, посвящённый эксплуатации КАПК «Шквал».
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … I asked is that Shkval a contrast based tracking or what, as it doesn't work as contrast based tracking does and proved it to you. If you do not accept it, then either it is using some other tracking method than contrast based, why I asked from you what it is using if not contrast based…
    Ещё раз повторяю, не сочиняйте. Я спросил Вас, однако Вы уклонились от ответа. После этого Вы стали разговаривать сам с собой, придумывая какие-то якобы мои «аргументы», и сам же отвечая на них.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    <…>
    Quote:
    Do you have experience with the real Shkval?
    So your argument is that because anyone can detect that KA-50 in DCS doesn't have contrast lock capabilities that the system is by specifications primary mean to lock targets for tracking, that one would need real world experiences with it, to know it doesn't have a contrast lock capabilities?..
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Irrelevant, as I know how contrast based tracking systems work in their functionality. What DCS doesn't have and what is the problem.
    So I ask again, if Shkval does not use contrast based tracking, what it then uses?..
    Это имеет большое значение. Поскольку вы не обладаете никакой технической документацией на КАПК «Шквал», а также не имеете опыта реальной работы с этой старой советской прицельной системой. Вы не знаете характеристик его оптической системы, пороговых характеристик светофильтров системы контраста, и т.д.

    Все слова о знании принципа работы системы цветового контраста в целом, без знания технических характеристик конкретной системы, это не более чем обычное бла-бла-бла.
  5. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … You have not answered my question I asked first. And when I answer, you don't read and demand an answer…
    Вы тоже упорно не отвечали на мой вопрос. Кроме того, обсуждение Вы вели сам с собой, поскольку я в нём вообще не участвовал.
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … So you have zero understanding how contrast based tracking works. That came clear now…
    Исходя из чего Вы сделали такой вывод? Вы считаете, что другие глупее чем Вы?
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … It doesn't matter what I talk to developers, you brought up that Shkval is close to real and thats it. And I asked you that you can't be serious if you know how contrast based tracking systems work?..
    По моему, в своих попытках уклонится от ответа, Вы уже просто-напросто сами потерялись в хронологии своей беседы с самим собой.
  8. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … So you really do not have any information how contrast based tracking systems operate, or what real Shkval does work. So all you do is make ad hominems and draw to authority if you don't like answers…
    Таким образом Вы также не имеете ни малейшего представления как работает реальный КАПК «Шквал». Все ваши теоретические измышления – это не более чем бездоказательные рассуждения диванного «эксперта-теоретика».
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … Again irrelevant question and ad hominem attack…
    Вы опять уклоняетесь от ответа. Кроме того, все Ваши необоснованные обвинения – это не более чем демагогические приёмы.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
    … I again ask the same question as in the begin, do you have any knowledge how contrast based tracking systems work, and do you know is the Shkval contrast based tracking?
    If you know it is, and how contrast based tracking works then you will know that Shkval in KA-50 is not anywhere near "close to real".

    It is super simple thing.

    We are talking contrast detection system, not about target recognition and identification. We do not neither talk about laser spot tracking or radar tracking or anything like that. Unless you can provide evidence that Shkval tracking is not contrast based.
    Я не вижу смысла продолжать беседу, если Вы не приводите никаких технических документов по реальному КАПК «Шквал». Потому, что я уже говорил Вам о том, что болтовня про то, как он должен работать в теории, без конкретных светоконтрастных характеристик его оптической системы, это не более чем гадание на кофейной гуще.
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:08 PM   #257
AeriaGloria
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You’re really hung up on the contrast thing. There is no true contrast lock code in DCS, I think it’s possible to say “our Shkval is close to real one” while still having a system that emulates contrast lock without being actual contrast lock.

Yes it makes it a little different then the real thing, but in principle operates the same and is made to be accurate within the confines of the code. A real Shkval operates is going to do the same thing as DCS pilots, slew it and change gate size until you get a lock. Is that not enough to call it “pretty close” to how the real one operates?
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Old 05-23-2020, 06:11 PM   #258
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You’re really hung up on the contrast thing. There is no true contrast lock code in DCS, I think it’s possible to say “our Shkval is close to real one” while still having a system that emulates contrast lock without being actual contrast lock.
Thank you for saying "Shkval targeting system doesn't work close to the real thing." what is exactly the point that Shkval in KA-50 has been from the start a fantasy system that detects units and requires unrealistic locking requirements and unsuitable for even a anti-air mode when you can't realistically lock on target even in optimal scenario.

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Yes it makes it a little different then the real thing, but in principle operates the same and is made to be accurate within the confines of the code. A real Shkval operates is going to do the same thing as DCS pilots, slew it and change gate size until you get a lock. Is that not enough to call it “pretty close” to how the real one operates?
It is not "little different", there is a HUGE difference between correctly done contrast based lock and tracking, and a fake one using unit and object ID's.

It is not "all would be better if it would be real contrast locking", but more realistic with the limited capabilities like losing lock far more often, losing track more often and requiring to be far more accurate how and when to try locking even. It would require from the pilot more in some scenarios, while making it far easier in some others.

I have good video to be made of these Shkval fantasy capabilities as well clear lack of capabilities and functions. Just need to get back to studio on next week to edit them for shorter.

The Shkval unrealistic and very limited capabilities comes obvious for anyone who starts to use it little more seriously than "can I lock on that tank and shoot at it", and in the future when we start to get far more advanced damage modeling to air and ground units, we as well require far more accurate and realistic Shkval targeting capabilities.

It is immersion breaker when targeting system has fantasy capabilities and it is unfair for the targets as well for the pilot. And it becomes frustrating when you have optimal scenario to shoot down an aircraft, but your targeting system decides "Sorry, my programming limits doesn't allow you to do that, but try to that fence post instead!"

And you do not go to "play with targeting gate size to get lock", as it is doing it wrong. It is your task as pilot to set the targeting gate size so that the system tracks the wanted target and minimizes the changes to lose a lock or starts tracking wrong target. As with that gate size you are programming the system to track specific pattern, and your job is to get that pattern be as clear as possible as you can lock on anything that has enough contrast. You can even use a largest possible gate size to target a smallest possible target with a solid lock, as only thing that matters is that point of your gate center line is on the target, and it doesn't then move in the scene that is beign tracked as the system is tracking the whole scene inside that gate, so your scene doesn't change so that tracking algorithms starts to think it size changes or it moves somewhere else.

Simple contrast based systems requires the lock to be made by the judgement of the operator. They are defining the area.
A more advanced systems are more complex that are capable for specific target recognition and then automatically track such. But we are talking about very high processing requirements and still have lots of false targets as well losing a track.

And that kind systems Shkval-M received in the KA-50Sh with the French targeting sphere. Multi target recognition and tracking, simultaneously scanning while tracking and guiding while tracking.

But our Shkval is very very simple in that.
1) operator defines the area to be tracked.
2) operator commands contrast pattern to be detected in the area.
3) system starts tracking the pattern once its requirements are met.
4) system tracks pattern by allowing some dynamic changes at given time and form changes.

This is just the common question here, does a player accept a fantasy systems like the current Shkval, or do they want "as realistic as possible"?
As it can be made as realistic as possible, but it will likely make many players mad as they need to learn that they would come more to a situations where system simply doesn't work automatically.

I take "realistic as possible" over fantasy or because limited programming.

This is similar scenario as AIM-54 tracking targets behind a mountain, or track targets even guiding radar turned off after launch and before missile goes active.

Fighter pilots doesn't accept such fantasy features, why does helicopter pilots accept fantasy targeting systems for helicopters?

We are getting a "Black Shark 3", where we get new targeting system settings for filtering etc. That has been to this date not implemented. We have never had a fragmentation sleeve modeled as engine doesn't support it (but will) and our Vikhr proximity fuze is not modeled (needs to become). And our targeting system is not contrast based but object/unit ID based fantasy system with some restrictions added to "make it real".

Some players can be happy what fantasies they have now, but some wants more realism and more realistic features.

This all is acknowledged by ED, and they are working in long run to fix all this. And people should accept that things are going to change, and things that are broken should get fixed in time.

We can go and dig up years old statements from developers saying all kind things, but we would never be even in this level of simulation if there wouldn't be a demand for it. Lock-On was great, amazing really. But I take any day current 2.5.6 DCS World without question...

And here we are talking that what KA-50 should be in the future, not what it was 8 years ago.
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Old 05-23-2020, 06:32 PM   #259
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sure, it would be nice to see real contrast system, but I don’t think that invalidates what they said about it being pretty close. I know contrast is way different then what we have now, but the basic workflow is the same, the procedures are very similar, you slew change gate and lock and re acquire as needed. The ANG doesn’t use A-10C becuase it’s exactly like the real one, they use A-10ac becuase it’s procedures Are sufficiently similar enough to be a training tool.

I’m just saying, it’s nice to want contrast lock, but doesn’t mean the whole system is not a reasonable approximation for just that reason. If you don’t like it okay you don’t have to fly it, but it not having contrast does not also mean they weren’t being honest when it was said “Shkval is reasonably similar to the real thing.”

I know contrast lock is different, but this is basically a procedures trainer, if you want to say a system is not at all realistic just becuase one of its functions has been simplified to fit in the game code but still have the same workflow and procedure, then I don’t think you’re going to be happy with the way any of the sensors are done in DCS. We will not get a true ray casted RCS simulation. It’s an approximation centered around procedures, of course it’s not completely realistic, but I will stand by it being a reasonable approximation and as realistic as most of our sensors are in DCS. Of course things always work more perfectly then they do in real life, it’s a simulation game. Honestly if this is such an immersion breaker for you that it disqualifies everything else about the Shkval being a reasonable approximation, then I don’t know how you have been playing DCS for so long. I can’t think of a single game with actual contrast locking. Or a single game with ray casted RCS, or RWR getting false incorrect signals.

I’m sure this post will get another war and peace from you, but I guess everyone will have to agree to disagree on this thread. I understand why the developers said the Shkval is close to the real thing(for a simulation), I’m sorry you don’t
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:20 PM   #260
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sure, it would be nice to see real contrast system, but I don’t think that invalidates what they said about it being pretty close. I know contrast is way different then what we have now, but the basic workflow is the same, the procedures are very similar, you slew change gate and lock and re acquire as needed. The ANG doesn’t use A-10C becuase it’s exactly like the real one, they use A-10ac becuase it’s procedures Are sufficiently similar enough to be a training tool.
If we do the unrealistic scenarios where a vehicle sits middle of a salt lake and we must destroy it, then it is Ok'ish. You exactly that.

But if we do semi-realistic scenarios, trees between, trees behind, sun is behind us, we launch Vikhr that's smoke trail blocks the target complete for over 3 seconds, the target starts moving etc. Doesn't anymore work at all correct way.

Same way as Vikhr fragmentation sleeve is not just used against air targets but as wéll soft targets. Why you have proximity fuze to blow up fragments near the targets instead flying rocket in the ground and fire tandem charge on rocks. You can't do that correctly as the proximity fuze doesn't detect ground. It doesn't detect buildings, nor trees. It doesn't detect anything else than Unit ID.

So you are hunting enemy helicopters that hover above treeline, you shoot Vikhr at them in A-A mode and Vikhr just flies couple meters above trees without any problems.

You are sneaking a enemy location and you see enemy helicopter hovering with cargo on rope. You launch missile between trees about 200 meters from you and proximity fuze doesn't get triggered for it.

In many real scenarios you wouldn't use A-A mode because proximity fuze would get triggered, so you need to position yourself other way to get a valid launch rules.

I made videos about Shkval locking and tracking targets behind the trees, but not on tree itself. It can lock on a fence post but not on aircraft against blue sky. It can lock on a single tire on a vehicle, but not to a whole vehicle. It can track target with perfect blending to background, but lose suddenly against perfect blue background.

It can lock on any part of the building, even on pure white wall and track it perfectly, but has serious trouble to lock on tank sitting on snow.

The system perfectly detects is a target dead or alive and denies locking if dead, while in reality a dead vehicle can have no visual signs of destruction for even pilot to know.


Quote:
I’m just saying, it’s nice to want contrast lock, but doesn’t mean the whole system is not a reasonable approximation for just that reason. If you don’t like it okay you don’t have to fly it, but it not having contrast does not also mean they weren’t being honest when it was said “Shkval is reasonably similar to the real thing.”
There is reason why since hornet ED models radar beam scanning. That same technology has been used in M2000 now coming IR seekers for scanning the target.

https://m.facebook.com/RazbamSims/vi...6379681407524/

I don't know is that set to other radars like example AIM-120C that when it goes active, it actually would need to find the target.
And that is affect by RCS even.

Why to do that, when we all could be happy with a Lock-On radar as in FC3, that once target is inside a radar range it gets automatically detected. We can fake things like radar beam altitude but just keep magical knowledge that targets are there and show them when parameters are right.
While currently it is simulated that your radar and IR seeker needs to find the source.

We are getting all that for radars, why not for optical targeting systems?

ED is currently remaking FLIR system. That will benefit from real contrast lock system. As now we have unrealistic Maverick missiles lock ranges (example swedish tested Maverick B locking and they got 1.5-3km ranges, we shoot them at 15km). We have unrealistic FLIR for detecting ground units. We have
IR missile seekers unrealistic. Flares are unrealistic, chaff are unreasonable.

Lots of systems are based to very limited system modeling. That has been problem of the game engine and limitations of computers resources. But not anymore. We have gone from 1 core to 12-32 cores. No more 512-1024MB RAM but 32-64GB.

Want to simulate a realistic radar? You run a ray tracing on its beam. You don't need to do complex millions of rays but acceptable and work with it to do actual detection.

And that is what ED is doing with their A-G radar, the beam needs to scan the terrain, it is calculated what it seems and how to present it. It needs to actually see things.
Anyone can write a simple variant that is "good enough" by taking a image of the terrain, apply some filters to it and then place all known units as blocks to it and say "radar found these". And most players are likey happy for a while, until the simplicity becomes obvious and annoying.

In 2020 we can't have anymore such things to happen as in 1997.

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I know contrast lock is different, but this is basically a procedures trainer, if you want to say a system is not at all realistic just becuase one of its functions has been simplified to fit in the game code but still have the same workflow and procedure, then I don’t think you’re going to be happy with the way any of the sensors are done in DCS.
When KA-50 got released, I was flying over a year avoiding all trees, power lines and such. I got shot down often and many times I was left wondering that what happened. How did I get shot by a T-80 from 4km range when there were trees between us.

When you learn that trees doesn't have a hit box and power lines doesn't destroy your rotors and so on, your immersion goes away. What use it was to add a SAM behind a forest when it still saw you and shot you through them? What use it was to change altitude for power lines when you could just fly through them.

And one of my biggest expectations was in the 1.5 new trees that got a hit boxes and so on. No more faking that "I must avoid these trees" when you actually need to avoid trees.

But when you can today lock on target through trees and track it perfectly, it brakes the immersion.
When you can't lock on target that clearly is there well inside target gate and optimal scenario and laser just range or but doesn't lock, it brakes the immersion.

When a player learns to operate aircraft properly it is great fun. But when player finds out that it is fake or unrealistic (like CCIP drop line always perfect on ground), it will take away the fun.

Quote:
We will not get a true ray casted RCS simulation. It’s an approximation centered around procedures, of course it’s not completely realistic, but I will stand by it being a reasonable approximation and as realistic as most of our sensors are in DCS.
We can get that, not today or tomorrow but one day. There are already simulators doing that with virtual audio. As EAX processing allows to correctly calculate audio reflections, so we can simulate audio source, strength and direction and then that energy reflecting from the 3D model (that we can shape with other simulated materials to dampen or increase audio) back toward the virtual microphone. We can have very good approximately about signal type and content we receive, and use that to simulate a radar emissions. As radio waves are not so different from audio waves.

And now we can do that with a light raytracing, we have dedicated GPU to do just that, simulate rays in wanted form and shape how we want. and we could mix that with cheats, so that we still do it to everything at low performance cost, but when we know (cheat) that at given place is something, we ramp up the ray casting to wanted level for few frames to perform a correct calculation.

We do not need to model a nuclear plant to learn how it works down to every bolt and door knob. But we cant teach it by means like explaining it to a 5 year old.


Quote:
Of course things always work more perfectly then they do in real life, it’s a simulation game. Honestly if this is such an immersion breaker for you that it disqualifies everything else about the Shkval being a reasonable
A actual contrast based detection would bring lots of situations for losing a lock or track slipping to something else.
And it would bring lots of maneuvers and ways to brake a tracking enemy, like flying so that you get something behind you to create fuzzy contrast area.

It could actually be used for IR seekers tracking functions against flares. Like now a Flare is just a dice rolled once a second to check does missile lose a lock and track to it..only requirement is that flare is inside missile gimbal limits. So no matter of FOV or flare separation from the tracked target, it is very simple "yes or no" roll.
Why we have cases that R-27ER seeks at chaff that was way outside the radar beam and far away from target, but it was rolled and found Yes and it was inside missile seeker gimbal limits so missile goes there. And that is why dumping chaff and flare works as each has few seconds lifetime only, and each one is rolled individually. So 10 flares is 10 checks each time. And if example flare has 0.25 probability to lock missile to it, you better release flares as crazy as you get almost always away it. Then there are missiles like AIM-9X that's flare attraction is set to something drastic like 0.015 and you really need to get lucky to have it go to flare.

Does that brake the immersion? Yes... Knowledge is pain. And it goes both ways. You learn that specific module functionality ain't realistic, be it a R-77 on Su-27S or LAU-66 tripple Maverick launcher on A-10C and it is personal question for everyone, realism or gameplay?

DCS is under heavy redesign, and we should eyes toward future to improve things and go toward reality instead fantasies.

Some things we know how they work but we can't simulate them. But we could implement them properly.
One of these things is IFF systems. We can go to library and find books about IFF systems in detail, but we do not have algorithms, codes or anything such. But we learn the principles and we could very well implement such in DCS that acts and work as realistic, beign untrustworthy and causing situations where wrong or old codes are in use etc. But we wouldn't have anything secret simulated.
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approximation, then I don’t know how you have been playing DCS for so long. I can’t think of a single game with actual contrast locking. Or a single game with ray casted RCS, or RWR getting false incorrect signals.
DCS does that already with hornet radar. Not ray casting but radar beam is simulated. Not just by scanning but as well calculate RCS based target attitude and you can slip in and out from hornet radar scope by using that advantage. In F-14 it is simulated that how you need to adjust radar to find target and track it, easy to lose a target if not prepared for possible maneuvers.

DCS has changed in last 5 years more than since Flanker. And it is going to change even more as ED has in situation where they can do those things.

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I’m sure this post will get another war and peace from you, but I guess everyone will have to agree to disagree on this thread. I understand why the developers said the Shkval is close to the real thing(for a simulation), I’m sorry you don’t
Sorry that you don't expect more from ED and you accept a old statements that nothing needs to be improved.
If you can't find that there are missing features and lack of function. You don't need to buy "Black Shark 3" or hope anything new from it.
As of you look new cockpit and you look old manual and it's "not implement", don't then use those in future.

All other modules get their core functions improved, why not helicopters too? WW2 are soon to receive a new damage modeling, drastically changing ways to combat as different calibers has different effect at different parts of aircrafts.
Fighters has received radar scans and FOV etc.

But helicopters targeting systems to stay same since KA-50 was released is just ignoring the improvements ED does.
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