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Old 05-18-2019, 05:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by whitehot View Post
After some initial adjustement I i've learnt to control this helicopter as good as with the others, i can't say i'm dissatisfied with the result. What has always bothered me, it's a sensation of "low res" of the flight model, like the tables from which is formed contain a small amount of values.

this translates imo in unrealistic transition phases. Another impression i've got after flying it for some hours, is that the collective variation effects on pitch/roll/yaw are way too linear and inconsistent.

Under this respect, helis like the Hip, or especially the Huey, have a very recognizable reaction to, for ex., an abrupt increase in torque. This fm instead, seems almost to be "missing" that part.

Try putting the heli at a slight roll angle, then quickly (or slowly) increase collective.
I mean, what happens doesn't seem realistic to me, it remembers me of the behavior of old DOS flightsims. I'm not saying that the true gazelle can't be like this at all, but the impression that the fm is missing some data in that department is heavy.
As an observation, I get very similar results with the Mi8 and Gazelle and Huey. I tried both rolling left and rolling right from a hover and pulled the collective without correcting for torque change but staying within torque limits.

On right roll torque pulled the nose to the left and as the aircraft rotated the nose went up and tail down. The Mi8 did the same thing but the magnitude and lag resulted in a less dramatic result.

Whilst left roll the torque moment pulled the nose left and down initiating a kinda spiral descent manoeuvre.

The Huey had similar results but with opposite effect for left and right roll.

I tried at a slight maybe 5 deg and also at about 15 deg roll angles, have I missed something?
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:57 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by SnowTiger View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong with the collective.
It is a light chopper and therefore unlike the Huey, it doesn't drop like a stone when you reduce collective.

In fact, I don't think the collective works the same in the Gazelle as it does other/heavier choppers. The collective doesn't seem to control altitude like other choppers such as the Ka-50. The cyclic seems to have about as much control over altitude as the collective.

For sure it is it's own chopper and therefore has it's own unique characteristics. I don't think the flight model needs any attention, especially when multiple RL SA342 pilots have flown this Module and say it's as close as you are going to get in a Sim. It's just Different. And again, I think what each of us experiences is weighed against other choppers we've flown or expectations we may have in advance as well as the differences of HOTAS's used.
After watching "Flying Soldiers" Episode 3, I learned allot about the sensitivity of the controls and tuned my Cyclic to reflect the actual aircraft's sensitivity and range of movement.

https://youtu.be/TwuYXZ0foIs
Hello, in fact the FM has a LOT of problems...
Polychop is supposed to work on that but they are now focused on their next helo and don't want to loose time with the Gazelle because they won't earn money anymore with it....
I have worked with Polychop trying to help them to fix the big FM issues. I performed a test flight with them and I exposed 4 big issues in the FM which are nonsense for a helo.

Just try something: you fly the Gazelle at 100km/h and apply a 2cm right input on your stick and maintain it. The Gazelle is never stopping rolling on the right!!!!!!! THIS IS THE FIRst BIG ISSUE. They have coded the FM without considering that it's a helicopter!!!!!
À steady x cm displacement of the cyclic is equal to a steady roll angle IRL for the Gazelle and the Fennec and the Puma etc.... (I only fly on French helo IRL)

I am fed up with working with them now. I flew the Gazelle 150hours IRL when starting to learn to fly 15 years ago. Now I have 3000h of fight and still continue to fly every day IRL.
I have asked some current Gazelle pilots to join me in order to help Polychop but Polychop seems to be deaf.

When I read that ALAT Pilots told the FM was good I really want to meet them because we are a lot of French helo pilots (French air force and Alat) to find the Polychop Gazelle sooooooo bad with the FM and sooooo unrealistic.

I you want to fly a helicopter which seems to be realistic, take a look at the MI8. We are having a lot of fun to fly it. Only the Vortex seems to be overrated. IRL With the MI8 in DCS, the Vortex is binary coded.... But apart from this weird behavior with Vortex, the MI8 is realistic enough.

I would love to fly the Gazelle in DCS but it's impossible today for real pilot to have fun with it in a simulation. Perhaps in arcade mode it would be fun, but we are playing DCS for simulation experience

Last edited by Damcopter; 05-18-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:00 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHPL View Post
That's fun, that's the way it should be, and the Gazelle behaves like a Formula One car in the air.

There are many different opinions about the flight model, and we may argue about how realistic it is, or not.
But the main question is how can I fly this thing in DCS. And have fun with it.



I just want to put in a massive THANK YOU to the original poster for putting up that video.

I already had the UH-1H Iroquois and had found it insanely frustrating. Although I liked the look of the SA342 Gazelle and would have liked to have flown it in DCS, I'd been baulking at it, on account of a lot of hostile reviews and complaints about the sensitivity of it. Having watched the video, I finally was brave enough to get the module, and yes...

I definitely needed to apply those tweaks suggested. And they worked a treat.

I am REALLY enjoying this module.


In case it helps anyone else, here is precisely what I am using (I have a CH-Products Fighter Stick pro and CH-Products Pro Pedals).

Code:
              |<--  STICK  -->|   PEDALS
                 Z     Y     X       Z
              Coll  Ptch  Roll    Rddr
              -------------------------
Deadzone         0     0     0       0
Saturation X   100   100   100     100
Saturation Y    70    40    25      60
Curvature        0     0     0       0
I also "invert" the collective so pulling the dial towards me is adding lift.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:09 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Damcopter View Post
Hello, in fact the FM has a LOT of problems...
Polychop is supposed to work on that but they are now focused on their next helo and don't want to loose time with the Gazelle because they won't earn money anymore with it....
I have worked with Polychop trying to help them to fix the big FM issues. I performed a test flight with them and I exposed 4 big issues in the FM which are nonsense for a helo.

Just try something: you fly the Gazelle at 100km/h and apply a 2cm right input on your stick and maintain it. The Gazelle is never stopping rolling on the right!!!!!!! THIS IS THE FIRst BIG ISSUE. They have coded the FM without considering that it's a helicopter!!!!!
À steady x cm displacement of the cyclic is equal to a steady roll angle IRL for the Gazelle and the Fennec and the Puma etc.... (I only fly on French helo IRL)
This doesn't seem to be correct, cyclic displacement is rate of roll not an amount of roll??


Quote:
I am fed up with working with them now. I flew the Gazelle 150hours IRL when starting to learn to fly 15 years ago. Now I have 3000h of fight and still continue to fly every day IRL.
I have asked some current Gazelle pilots to join me in order to help Polychop but Polychop seems to be deaf.

When I read that ALAT Pilots told the FM was good I really want to meet them because we are a lot of French helo pilots (French air force and Alat) to find the Polychop Gazelle sooooooo bad with the FM and sooooo unrealistic.

I you want to fly a helicopter which seems to be realistic, take a look at the MI8. We are having a lot of fun to fly it. Only the Vortex seems to be overrated. IRL With the MI8 in DCS, the Vortex is binary coded.... But apart from this weird behavior with Vortex, the MI8 is realistic enough.
Is it? Cyclic displacement is possibly inconsistent to documentation with AP on, it's more like that of a plane not a helo, although do try it with AP off this seems more correct in that cyclic displacement corresponds with rate of roll like it does in the Huey and Gazelle.

Try it "Windows" + "Shift" + "A" to turn it off

Quote:
I would love to fly the Gazelle in DCS but it's impossible today for real pilot to have fun with it in a simulation. Perhaps in arcade mode it would be fun, but we are playing DCS for simulation experience
Each to their own, although I would have expected a somewhat more informed argument from such an experienced pilot, perhaps with theory to explain the various points not just a potty mouth.

BTW Pollychop have gone on record indicating that the Gazelle will be reviewed, lets see what happens.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:31 AM   #25
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I will repeat this again. Polychop is working in 2 things right now. A review for the gazelle and their new project at the same time. The update for the gazelle is supposed to be released this year. BTW, try to keep it civil guys.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHPL View Post
That's fun, that's the way it should be, and the Gazelle behaves like a Formula One car in the air.

There are many different opinions about the flight model, and we may argue about how realistic it is, or not.
But the main question is how can I fly this thing in DCS. And have fun with it.


Sir,

I just would like to thank you for the video. Very instructive and very productive.

All the best,

Sydy
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by swatstar98 View Post
I will repeat this again. Polychop is working in 2 things right now. A review for the gazelle and their new project at the same time. The update for the gazelle is supposed to be released this year. BTW, try to keep it civil guys.
Would you mind linking the announcement? Mustve missed it if its on here.
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:16 PM   #28
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@Fragbum
I don't want to rewrite all the things already done in other posts on the Gazelle.(and I remember that you and me have already spoken about it on other thread) I spent à lot of time working with Polychop, now I am waiting for the FM review "this year"

If the new FM is realistic I would be the first to congrats the hard work done by Polychop.

You wrote:" This doesn't seem to be correct, cyclic displacement is rate of roll not an amount of roll??"
In real French helicopters I repeat: x cm displacement of the cyclic on a side correspond to a x degrees of roll angle and not correspond to a never ending roll at x degrees per second like it is in the DCS Gazelle. This is the first big issue in the Polychop FM.

So hovering with the DCS Gazelle is absolutely not realistic.
I don't know why but when you trim the cyclic of the DCS Gazelle with x cm of displacement on a side, the never ending roll stops and the behaviour is right. But IRL, trim or not is the same because Trim is only a sort of magnetic brake which block your cyclic in position (in fact it's more complicated and I am unable to explain it in English)
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:52 PM   #29
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@Sephyrius:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephyrius View Post
Would you mind linking the announcement? Mustve missed it if its on here.

Quote:
About the Gazelle. We plan some updates for it in 2019. When these will eventually make it into the sim is depending on some factors. The biggest factor is time.
As stated on the Polychop Facebook page right here:
https://www.facebook.com/PolychopSim...70712439901069
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:14 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Damcopter View Post
@Fragbum
I don't want to rewrite all the things already done in other posts on the Gazelle.(and I remember that you and me have already spoken about it on other thread) I spent à lot of time working with Polychop, now I am waiting for the FM review "this year"

If the new FM is realistic I would be the first to congrats the hard work done by Polychop.

You wrote:" This doesn't seem to be correct, cyclic displacement is rate of roll not an amount of roll??"
In real French helicopters I repeat: x cm displacement of the cyclic on a side correspond to a x degrees of roll angle and not correspond to a never ending roll at x degrees per second like it is in the DCS Gazelle. This is the first big issue in the Polychop FM.

So hovering with the DCS Gazelle is absolutely not realistic.
I don't know why but when you trim the cyclic of the DCS Gazelle with x cm of displacement on a side, the never ending roll stops and the behaviour is right. But IRL, trim or not is the same because Trim is only a sort of magnetic brake which block your cyclic in position (in fact it's more complicated and I am unable to explain it in English)
Thank you I look forward to a more robust discussion on various aspects regarding the Gazelle, especially the cyclic deflection vs roll angle you mention.
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