[NO BUG] AIM120:countermeasure spoofing returned to the old value, Why??

This thread still going

So I did some testing and, yeah, the 120 is much easier to spoof with chaff than before. I can do it reliably in the Flanker rn over 400kmh, could never do it pre patch, barring a coba. Videos inbound soon

First with without ECM, second is with:

And another vid:

Nice to see!

To everyone complaining that their 120% PK missile got nerfed:

Chizh said very clearly that they did not want to change the counter-chaff-effectiveness of the Aim-120 with the new autopilot. It was always supposed to be comparable to the chaff-effectiveness before the autopilot change.

The almost perfect chaff resistance of the Aim-120 was proably introduced as an unwanted side effect of the new autopilot.

So the few months of almost complete chaff resistance were actually a bug.

Changing the CCM values wasnt a bug, I think Maestros post pretty much makes it clear their official reasoning behind changing it:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4476779&postcount=9465

I guess we'll just have to wait for DCS EW update to get realistic ccm resistance, but, hey, I guess it means more Flankering for me.

First with without ECM, second is with:

So I did some testing and, yeah, the 120 is much easier to spoof with chaff than before. I can do it reliably in the Flanker rn over 400kmh, could never do it pre patch, barring a coba. Videos inbound soon

120 is still the hardest missile to notch/chaff, but it is at least possible now, again. As it should be.

If anything RL data and Murphy's law would probably suggest its still too perfect.

I would bet in a proper conflict many more would miss than expected. Take ECM for example, how do you reckon a 120 would deal with something jamming it? Etc etc.

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People are forgetting that you could just dodge the amraam head on with ECM last patch. Every single time with no effort. Do you prefer that? ED never wanted the missile to be untrashable as pointed out here before.

Also as quoted already, according to ED (and also right on top of wikipedia if you google "chaff") its not chaff on its own, but chaff+ECM that makes the difference. It is much better if ED finishes their work on EW and applies the changes to ALL MISSILES, instead of whatever the hell the few previous patches were.

Except that it wasnt untrashable pre-patch. Without ECM, simply using chaff, I posted several videos a page or two ago. It just took effort not, just passing through the notch for 0.1sec while chaffing. But w/e, I suppose EDs gonna do whatever they want here.

Nice to see!

 

To everyone complaining that their 120% PK missile got nerfed:

120% pK my ass. It was always 50% pK for me even firing high-aspect, altitude advantage at 20nm.

People are forgetting that you could just dodge the amraam head on with ECM last patch.

Your favorite jet has ECM? Lucky you! Some have been waiting years for it to be implemented...:music_whistling:

120% pK my ass. It was always 50% pK for me even firing high-aspect, altitude advantage at 20nm.

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People are forgetting that you could just dodge the amraam head on with ECM last patch. Every single time with no effort. Do you prefer that? ED never wanted the missile to be untrashable as pointed out here before.

 

 

 

Also as quoted already, according to ED (and also right on top of wikipedia if you google "chaff") its not chaff on its own, but chaff+ECM that makes the difference. It is much better if ED finishes their work on EW and applies the changes to ALL MISSILES, instead of whatever the hell the few previous patches were.

But Max you also have to take into account that ER has been easily dodged with a headon roll since FC2, ECM or not. Its the nature of DCS. Do the competent redfor pilot cries when that happens time and again, headon? No, because a shitstorm would decent down on these forums.

So where does the problem lie? ED needs to work on netcode and MP desync foremost, IMO.

Just fly and stop whining guys!

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Every missile since FC2 could be rolled head-on due to very low lift values, and the higher up you went, the easier it was. It wasn't limited to a specific missile.

For the 120 this changed with the FM change where it was given a lot more lift, and since some of us pointed that out, Chizh had the old FM values changed for the R-27 and R-77 to match until they get their own new FM.

I have not checked if those missiles can be rolled head-on now, but it should be a lot harder in a bunch of scenarios, but not all ... a wide barrel roll is a valid and suggested defense against those missiles (R-27, especially AIM-7) in specific cases.

GGTharos is a smart feller indeed, I tend to agree with it often. Yet moving the goal post doesn't change the fact that ED reverted the change back to what ED thought was a correct implementation of the AMRAAM.

Yep, this is the right answer. I wanted deeper simulation, they reverted the value to what it used to be because it made sense, it's not a nerf.

ECM to protect their aircraft from attack and jamming of missile terminal homers. Well would you have it realism, Barrel rolling is BS on both sides of the coin but thats DCS and for ED to change as said above nobody in this community and i have myself barrel rolled ER's for days just to get my kill now you can do it to a 120 its bullshit? lol I would rather see barrel roll eliminated by ED for both ER and 120. The topic itself is just stupid, P.S for the ECM BUG (Which does not exist made up because my missile dont track) There has been no one to even bother to publish a public bug report? Funny that all i see is crying.

ECM to protect their aircraft from attack and jamming of missile terminal homers. Well would you have it realism, Barrel rolling is BS on both sides of the coin but thats DCS and for ED to change as said above nobody in this community and i have myself barrel rolled ER's for days just to get my kill now you can do it to a 120 its bullshit? lol I would rather see barrel roll eliminated by ED for both ER and 120. The topic itself is just stupid, P.S for the ECM BUG (Which does not exist made up because my missile dont track) There has been no one to even bother to publish a public bug report? Funny that all i see is crying.

This "ECM bug" was known to ED and was an intended feature, added at the same time as the missiles became practically immune to chaff. It was removed in this patch, and chaff became more important again.

Only few knew of this, and the ones that knew of this added feature were staying silent to not ruin BVR. But i have seen people use it in MP repeatedly and it was only a matter of time until everyone would have figured out.

Imagine the shitstorm, if people realized that you can defeat every single 120 at any range by just having ECM on and doing a lazy turn.

So be glad that the missiles at least track reliably head on now and that ED chose to start modelling EW properly instead of gamey barrel rolling mechanics.

This "ECM bug" was known to ED and was an intended feature, added at the same time as the missiles became practically immune to chaff. It was removed in this patch, and chaff became more important again.

 

Only few knew of this, and the ones that knew of this added feature were staying silent to not ruin BVR. But i have seen people use it in MP repeatedly and it was only a matter of time until everyone would have figured out.

 

Imagine the shitstorm, if people realized that you can defeat every single 120 at any range by just having ECM on and doing a lazy turn.

 

So be glad that the missiles at least track reliably head on now and that ED chose to start modelling EW properly instead of gamey barrel rolling mechanics.

You can do exactly the same thing in single player and the same thing works in MP of coarse its "gamey" people do it all the time WAY before all this came apparent, ECM bug was known to ED then how did the FEW know............ Either way Ill keep using ECM in MP liked or not :thumbup:

...ER has been easily dodged with a headon roll since FC2, ECM or not.

Just out of curiosity, is this the kind of maneuver you are referring to?

it makes no sense of returning to old value, because of complaints from some players.

ED gave us new value, and now returning to old one.

OH~~~come on, this game is not "warthunder" OK！

Agreed

Just out of curiosity, is this the kind of maneuver you are referring to?

No you can just barrel roll ER head on same as 120 you dont even need ECM to do it in SP or MP

There are about a 100+ ways to dodge an ER (or sometimes it might just dodge you by itself). There is probably about 1-2 ways to get that 120 off you, nuff said :P. Fly and enjoy the challenge (or for some not much challenge = take SD10 and Pheonixes).

Lets hope ED deals with desyncs and netcode stability in the meantime. All this missile talk here is just moot.

S!

All this missile talk here is just moot.

No it isn't, the significant reduction in chaff resistance is ridiculous. Yes other missiles haven't got that treatment yet but that's no reason to undo positive changes to the ones that had been fixed.

Significant reduction?

It is still basically chaff proof compared to a few month ago.

You are asking for a fantasy missile.