P-51 vs Bf-109 dogfight impressions

What are your impressions fly against 109, because mine are "Damn, the AI pilot is ace". He got me every time :D . I am not excellent pilot, but Dora as a target is like cargo plane against 109. Does 109 stall?

I post my tracks for your fun :D 2xBf109 1xFw109 bf.trk bf2.trk dora.trk

If you shoot down some 109 please send track :)

And sorry for my bad english :)

Well truly speaking in P-51 you should have hardly chance to win 1 vs 1 dogfight against K-4

What are your impressions fly against 109, because mine are "Damn, the AI pilot is ace". He got me every time :D . I am not excellent pilot, but Dora as a target is like cargo plane against 109. Does 109 stall?

 

I post my tracks for your fun :D 2xBf109 1xFw109 [ATTACH]108382[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]108383[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]108384[/ATTACH]

 

If you shoot down some 109 please send track :)

 

And sorry for my bad english :)

I havent tried against the 109, but as the 109 it is easy to saddle a mustang, but if your at high altitude you should hold a small advantage. plus above 500kph the mustang is more maneuverable at heights if my memory proves me right.

I can not get a good shot on the 109 (ai) while flying the Mustang. The 190 has never been much of a problem, but I just struggle with the 109.

Only one way to find out.. Any kurfürst-head wants to swell now? But host should be in Germany/ Europe.

I just did 2 dogfights piloting the P-51 against the 109. I put the mustang at 40% fuel to try and get any advantage possible.

It seems that the key to fighting the AI 109 is to avoid following him into the vertical. I usually hold a level or slight climbing turn and then fly lead pursuit to try and close up the gap once he starts on the way back down. When I feel I have an energy advantage I'll try to lead as much as possible to follow him into the vertical and taking the shots then. I end up stalling out long before he does, but I've laid a lot of hits on him that way.

The first fight ended in a mid-air collision, and the second ended up with me running out of fuel. I got lucky on the 2nd fight, early on I hit his wing and he was trailing smoke for the rest of the fight, which made spotting very easy. On the second fight the debrief said I hit him 40+ times, but that bastard won't go down.

If you really want to become better in dogfighting, you need to practice against flesh and blood humans, not AI.

If you really want to become better in dogfighting, you need to practice against flesh and blood humans, not AI.

Of course, but if it's hard to shoot down the AI 109, then it's pretty easy to predict the result against a human.

Anyway, I bravely ran away from a human 109 last night when I was in the P-51, and it was reassuring to know that the P-51 can out-pace the 109 on the level. Trying to fight the 109 1vs1 is just dumb. At the very least we should try to win 2vs2 contests. The exception is if you don't mind having your ass shot off a dozen times for the chance of getting lucky.

Well, a friend uploaded this P51D vs AI Bf109 K4 video:

I fought against AI 109

http://youtu.be/JP0Ki2VP1g8

It is just a better plane. There are no advantages for the P-51 that would make a difference in a fight.

109 can outturn, outrun and outclimb you. You can only try to dive, but even then, it will catch you at some point.

With AI you can always try to turn and reverse your turns. it seems to confuse it and cannot shoot at you.

I recomend taking 35% of fuel, at least then you have some chance. It should be enough for 30min (I think) Or take a wingman. Try to stay at 3000m and try to go into blind spots. 109 has plenty of them. Remeber though 190s are out there and they are the best at medium and low alt... geez it's so much BS :( We need spitfires.:helpsmilie:

Try downward spiral when 109 is close and has similar speed to you. The seem to not like that due to alerion stiffness(at least in other games) and then try to maybe reverse. All must be done at high speed.

We need to be better pilots then. Good luck boys and girls of allied expeditionary force.:unsure:

We need spitfires.:helpsmilie:

Giving up so soon? It's been less than a week and we've already given up at improving our tactics? The Spitfire is not going to help.

The biggest challenge right now in multiplayer isn't the 109K-4, it's the team-stacking that comes with the new toy. Give us even teams and then I will start to worry if I'm still getting my ass shot off.

Well, as time passes, and the models are refined, I am sure there will be less of a gap between them. We also need to learn the strengths and weak points, and take advantage of them. It has only been a few days, and with the Bf-109 in Beta without some essential additional features, so I don't think it is yet time to despair.

I have a feeling this will be a very very long thread before this subject has been exhausted.

Giving up so soon? It's been less than a week and we've already given up at improving our tactics? The Spitfire is not going to help.

 

The biggest challenge right now in multiplayer isn't the 109K-4, it's the team-stacking that comes with the new toy. Give us even teams and then I will start to worry if I'm still getting my ass shot off.

Giving up? Where did I say that give up? I am a P-51 fan. I fought worse. That beeing 4xMe262 and Me163 vs 1 P-51. So don't tell me I am giving up:megalol:

No just Spitifre would bring new pace to the game. Now both Fw190 and 109 can expect what we are going to do. With Spitfire they would have to react differently.

There are no tactics against it though. Not 1v1 at least. You can run... but does that count as wining? You have to do your best and hope he is just bad at flying. If he is good or at lest a little bit worse than you, he will still come on top.

I think that at high speeds turn, reverse and immediate snap roll would loose him... for a while... If he does something stupid he is yours, if he goes up, you are in even worse position than you were:thumbup:

With a friend. Drag and bag, deffensive split all that should work. But I don't have a wingman, I am always alone.:joystick:

Well, as time passes, and the models are refined, I am sure there will be less of a gap between them. We also need to learn the strengths and weak points, and take advantage of them. It has only been a few days, and with the Bf-109 in Beta without some essential additional features, so I don't think it is yet time to despair.

 

I have a feeling this will be a very very long thread before this subject has been exhausted.

The only thing that can happen now is that 109 will become even better. They have already reported that it looses wings way to easily.

I have fought flying 109 and against it in 3 other sims. It is a beast and K4 is the best of them all. There are no better 109s... that existed. Because 109K14 would be better.

Weak points? Here are the weak points:

Visibility: The 109 has TERRIBLE visiblity to the back and front low. Stay below 6 or 12 and you are fine. Try to turn one way and then reverse below its line of sight. That might give you an edge.

Stiffening: The 109 has been reported as the one without flettner tabs. That makes it hard to roll and pull Gs at high speeds. P-51 can outroll it easily at high speeds(in theory). I don't have it so I can't confirm if that was modeled in the game.

Fuel: It can fly 1h and 30min with full tank, fuel is not a big part of its weight so taking little is not realy changing much for the 51 pilot, but you can fly longer with 66% on yar 'stang.

Durability: From the AI it seems that is alot less durable then 190.

Aim for the middle: Fuel tank is there and it is quite easy to set on fire, as Real Life footage has shown. Also, aim for the engine to at least drop its performance.

Never TURN!!!! Stay fast. Try B&Z and element of suprise. If its on you... scream for help or try my first post.:helpsmilie:

According to YoYo, they haven't yet added stick force limitations at high speed to the 109K.

DB605 already raised the dive issue:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135217

Yo-Yo addressed it

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2253960&postcount=31

I think it will get nailed down.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135100&page=10

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2254114&postcount=96

Good info

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

Aim for the middle: Fuel tank is there and it is quite easy to set on fire, as Real Life footage has shown. Also, aim for the engine to at least drop its performance.

Aiming for the nose is better as if you are little off you will have your bullets hitting further back on the enemy a/c.

It's a spit but 109k #'s

According to YoYo, they haven't yet added stick force limitations at high speed to the 109K.

Sure they have ... they fall off. :music_whistling:

Its not quite as bad as you say. With regard to speed I did some runs and they are aboue the same at all heights, the mustang is faster at some and the 109 at others. Over 20,000ft you can definitely out turn the 109. Below that not so much. Between 20-10k it is about the same. Ive been in several human v human dogfights with 109s between 20-10k and we went around in circles forever without anyone gaining any purchase. Below 10k it definitely will out turn you though.

Good find Starkey. Yes the P-51 is king at very high altitudes. Use that to your advantage to dogfight. As always do not go in a vertical dogfight against a 109, he's the king there. At lower altitudes do not go 1 on on 1 with a 109 or 190. Bring a friend ;)

If you want to practice, fight against 2 Ace AI pilots by just surviving at first and then when you hone your skills go for the kill.

Aiming for the nose is better as if you are little off you will have your bullets hitting further back on the enemy a/c.

When you are 6o'clock behind him, you can't realy see the nose can you?

According to YoYo, they haven't yet added stick force limitations at high speed to the 109K.

I'd love to see when. It is one of the most defining factors for the P-51 in a fight against a 109. One of and probably only hole in its design that Mustang can exploit.

Fighting the 109K

Difficult but not impossible. I really had to micro manage my flaps and trim to keep my E. I don't think I would fight like this against a human opponent, but also I don't think human opponents will be hanging at 50-100kph stalls for extended periods of time like the AI does, because their engine would probably overheat.

The mustang isn't very competitive against the 109 below 7000ft, because your only advantage (speed) is gone at low altitudes.

Now THAT'S how DCS-vids should look like!

What perfection, what suspense...and what a rewarding ending! :thumbup:

Things both look and feel so much more real without labels and ubersmooth head movements.

Also, I tried my first dogfight yesterday, at low level against a Messerschmitt...got really messed up. Now I know why - great thread :)