Air-Air Refueling

How are you guys performing with A2A refueling. My performance is not really good. I have not managed to stay in contact for more than a sec.

Whats the trick to stay steady, level and on speed?

First of all I have problems with KC 135 BDA.

Try KC 130

You need to line up a point of reference on your plane with a part of the tanker that has the probe in line with the basket and then slowly throttle forward:

This video is a good example of that, unfortunately the HUD on the release build is different to the one seen in that video as it's the pre-launch press build so Mavericks tip doesn't apply anymore.

I've been trying to figure out another point of reference to use but I've come up short so far. Anyone else have a point reference to share?

How are you guys performing with A2A refueling. My performance is not really good. I have not managed to stay in contact for more than a sec.

 

Whats the trick to stay steady, level and on speed?

Practice.

Really nothing more than this. Do it often enough and it´ll work at one point.

Also could help you set the axis tune curves of your joystick. I use 20 (or 25)

Well as shitty as the answer is, it is practice.

Start off with formation flying, because in essence that is basically what AAR is, formation flying. Practice a lot and you will get better at keeping position.

Approach the tanker at very similar speeds, you want to basically reduce approach speed once you are in pre-contact range to around 1-3 knots difference.

Have small movements and stay calm, it's very psychological, shoot down the tanker once or twice to feel good if you are upset :)

Once you put the probe in the basket, don't look at the basket at all, in fact ignore it. Just fly formation with the tanker, look at the tanker. The absolute worst thing you can do is look at the basket. Power on/Power off usually works, so if you even feel you are getting back from the tanker, add a little power, and remove a little power. Very small movements.

You constantly have to move the throttle to adjust your position, and most beginners do overcorrect.

That is, they wait until the aircraft actually moves forward before they push back the throttle again.

Don't wait for the aircraft or else you will constantly correct your own overcorrections

You will need to look for a stable reference, for me it is the actual tanker, I fly form with it.

Whenever you feel like you're overreacting and getting frustrated just a bit, back off the throttle, breathe deeply for 5 seconds, go back to pre-contact

At one point, it'll click, and everything will be fine

You could also try using trim with 0 or minimal stick input. I personally don't do this but I know it works for a lot of other people

I agree, practice. imo, it's the easiest flyable aircraft for aerial refuel so far.

Su-33 is the easiest flyable aircraft for aerial refuel.

Must watch :

it has more to do with discrepancy with AOA and what the tanker is doing with true speed at point of contact, I think if you don't go into the advanced editor and set a correct speed, it is worthless to practice down at the default speed, will give you bad habits, your aircraft will be too slow, and you'll get PIO.

every aircraft, has an optimum speed of refueling, and depending on the refueling platform, that also changes.

If I can offer any tips, Try adjusting your Controller's Axis Curvature. This allows for VERY smooth turning and climbing while flying. It really helps when you need small angle adjustments on banks and climbs. Especially for refueling.

To do this, goto your Control Options > Axis Commands > Select Joystick input on Pitch or Roll > Axis Tune unlocks at the bottom > Curvature = 20 (Or whatever is more comfortable for you, varies on Joystick model). Then do the same for the other axis.

That should help.

I always teach guys to pull alongside the port side of the tanker and Triiiimmmm to the correct speed. Then practice formating on the tanker approx 5m away from basket. Do NOT grip the joystick tightly, the aircraft is in trim so v.small gentle movements (try using just 2 fingers). Once there pick some references that work for you. Until you get that nailed it's going to be very hard to contact the hose and maintain it.

Moving from a steady trimmed position from 5m to contact is a combination of quick glances at basket as you approach but mainly formating on the tanker. Walk throttles fwd and back to control speed (3 kts Max into basket) again small movements. Once you have contact resist the temptation to chop the power, maintain forward movement whilst immediately taking your eyes off basket and back onto tanker. Formate on tanker, pick new references and maintain.

At least in DCS we don't have the basket moving away from aircraft due to airflow bow wave (usually means a touch of rudder at last minute) but it's a valid technique if your slightly left at last second.

to me the community disconnect between the church of "how it's done in real life" and the compromises in AAR is telling. How many DCS hardcore have trained for years now to do it at 225?

I'll leave it at that. an aircraft on it's way to the shit, with loaded wings, has no time for all this dilly putzing around. You can Kibitz this all you want, until the tanker holds track properly for different aircraft speeds it's not accurate. Tankers have an optimal speed for weight and aircraft type, and when you get those situations when you've got an f-15 on the boom and a hornet on each wing on the basket, it's a whole different story. Nowhere in that story is 225, or busting your own chops in a recurrence of PIO and basket retractions.

It's actually better to simply land at a divert, get your fuel, and be on your way, in this game at least.

I agree, practice. imo, it's the easiest flyable aircraft for aerial refuel so far.

I'd agree. I hate the boom system and am glad to be rid of them.

Little OT: what's happened about the video tutorial that should be released by Wags related to AAR?

Bye

Phant

Refueling with the kc-130 is not that hard. With the S-3B is another story, it seems that the cable does not bend, if you go a little further you always disconnect. I think IRL the tanker is on auto pilot and communicates his speed. It would be very useful to have the tanker speed in the game.

for what it's worth, an IAS of 344-345kts in the F18C is pretty close to the speed that the S-3B flies.

That tanker can be a little annoying though, when you have spent a while lining up on the basket and are within a few feet of contact, when the tanker decides that it is going to change course. i even had one "get fed up of waiting" last night and it descended rather rapidly to return to the carrier.

Rather ironically, it had probably just run out of fuel. :)

to me the community disconnect between the church of "how it's done in real life" and the compromises in AAR is telling. How many DCS hardcore have trained for years now to do it at 225?

 

I'll leave it at that. an aircraft on it's way to the shit, with loaded wings, has no time for all this dilly putzing around. You can Kibitz this all you want, until the tanker holds track properly for different aircraft speeds it's not accurate. Tankers have an optimal speed for weight and aircraft type, and when you get those situations when you've got an f-15 on the boom and a hornet on each wing on the basket, it's a whole different story. Nowhere in that story is 225, or busting your own chops in a recurrence of PIO and basket retractions.

 

It's actually better to simply land at a divert, get your fuel, and be on your way, in this game at least.

Good mission creators will set the speed of the tanker correctly. One of the problems in DCS here is that you have to enter the TAS (true air speed) into the mission editor and not the IAS (indicted air speed). So it's quite possible the tanker is flying slower than it should if the mission creator hasn't done the conversion from IAS TO TAS.

It's also possible to script the mission so that it changes its speed for different aircraft. As for the tanker rolling into a turn as you are about to connect, bad luck but even IRL the tanker has a set airspace to work in and if comms are silent he won't warn the chick in tow that he's about to turn, you just got to be ready for it. DCS tankers btw limit their bank angle when hose is out (15 degrees aob) whereas IRL they don't (usually all turns are 25-30 degrees aob).

Easiest solution in some ways is to have multiple tankers in a mission with each one being suited to certain aircraft types based on speed and altitude. Not exactly hard.

I think to have a living fluid sim requires a bit more than a fleet of tankers in an unrealistic environ, and handmade scripted events and engagements. I'm only one man, not exactly hard to ignore one unpopular opinion, unless it resonates.

How are you guys performing with A2A refueling. My performance is not really good. I have not managed to stay in contact for more than a sec.

 

Whats the trick to stay steady, level and on speed?

I find AAR has two basic rules you MUST adhere to in order to be successfull

1. Focus on the tanker, don't look at the basket, the hose, the chute, nothing, focus on the tanker and tanker only.

2. Walk your throttle, settle in nicely with gentle throttle walk, after initial connection, slide in 10-20 feet and just keep level, always play with the throttle, always keep an eye on the tanker.

If i break any of these, I won't be refueling.

I think to have a living fluid sim requires a bit more than a fleet of tankers in an unrealistic environ, and handmade scripted events and engagements. I'm only one man, not exactly hard to ignore one unpopular opinion, unless it resonates.

Do you have anything positive and/or informative to contribute to this post? Post on the wishlist all the improvements you think are required.

I have an out-take video showing two people doing it immediately without hesitation and the third having 15 minutes of hell. He was chasing the basket, trying to dive into it. I'm not going to lie, good peripherals help, and since the Hornet is very throttle based it's a fair bit of throttle work to keep her there, I go forwards and back a lot, but the plane itself and inserting is easier than Harrier and much easier than the Mirage for me.

I defocus everything but the Tanker, i look through the basket and only detect it in my unfocused periphery. The other thing is the obsession with speed. Whilst it's good to know the speed for approach, thereafter if you are looking at your indicated, you are doing it wrong, you detect your closure and opening by looking at the Tanker. It might help to have a visual reference, but I use VR and the Hornet probe is conveniently in your face, so stuff is quiet symmetrical.

If you think about it, you should be pulled alongside the left at the start and looking through the side of the canopy and won't have access easily to gaze at your speed minutiae, but you will be aiming to keep pace and find your probably do a better job of keeping pace just by looking at the target aircraft, just like you would in formation.

I've seen some good formation flyers just come off the rails when it comes to A-A. There's also a mental block before you do it. Having confidence and a few under your belt actually helps because panicking and desperation and basket chasing are the death of air to air refuelling in sims.

Oh and setting your tanker to run too slow is a horrible horrible thing for a mission maker to do as it puts it in the sloppy control regimes and makes it harder.

A few points for AAR (in DCS at least):

- I don't agree with tweaking joystick curves on any aircraft except for a null zone for noisy axies and maybe the rudder for helicopters, in my case, only the Gazelle. To each his own, I guess. I know of very good real-life and/or DCS simmers who tweak and I respect that.

- Pitch is more instantaneous and hence easier to correct than speed. Get your horizontal, then vertical position under control. Only then, get accustomed to moving by small distance increments: this will involve small throttle inputs in one direction, quickly followed by another input in the opposite direction so not to accelerate or decelerate indefinitely. As you close in, movement should become smaller and smaller around the "perfect" throttle position.

- Don't stabilize right at the basket but rather a few feet behind. When stable, creep forward with gentle conviction and drive through the basket and come to a rest a few feet forward of the contact point. Then, keep is there! ;)

Practice, observe, learn, rest, practice again.

Your throttle control skills will be invaluable for carrier landings, aka traps.

Good luck.

It's actually better to simply land at a divert, get your fuel, and be on your way, in this game at least.

To the best of my knowledge, AAR is indeed a lot easier in real life, most of all because of the "butt meter" and better peripheral vision (unless a player has VR, which seems to help a lot in this regard), and also because the tanker is manned by professionals ho work better than the DCS AI.

That said, watching RL trainees with hundreds of hours in trainers and simulators and dozens of hours in the real jet struggle with AAR, I think we all have the same basic problems (thinking particularly of "Jetstream" here). :smartass:

If your above advice is what works best for you, that's great. From my perspective, AAR is indeed hard in DCS, but just like IRL, it takes practice. A lot of it. And then it clicks, and one wonders what the fuzz was all about.

After years of AAR in the A-10C (and some serious struggles in the Harrier), I find the F/A-18C particularly easy to refuel. It really shouldn't be a big deal for DCS pilots to hit the tanker 2, 3 times every mission, and maybe once more after a series of bolters. ;)

Do you have anything positive and/or informative to contribute to this post? Post on the wishlist all the improvements you think are required.

to build on a solid foundation, My opinions are my own. I don't have time in life to glad hand anything. Being rude is one thing, saying things in a curt manor people don't want to hear is by no means harmful, unless you can't take the heat. If the things I say upset you, simply do not read them.

To the best of my knowledge, AAR is indeed a lot easier in real life, most of all because of the "butt meter" and better peripheral vision (unless a player has VR, which seems to help a lot in this regard), and also because the tanker is manned by professionals ho work better than the DCS AI.

 

That said, watching RL trainees with hundreds of hours in trainers and simulators and dozens of hours in the real jet struggle with AAR, I think we all have the same basic problems (thinking particularly of "Jetstream" here). :smartass:

 

If your above advice is what works best for you, that's great. From my perspective, AAR is indeed hard in DCS, but just like IRL, it takes practice. A lot of it. And then it clicks, and one wonders what the fuzz was all about.

 

After years of AAR in the A-10C (and some serious struggles in the Harrier), I find the F/A-18C particularly easy to refuel. It really shouldn't be a big deal for DCS pilots to hit the tanker 2, 3 times every mission, and maybe once more after a series of bolters. ;)

On the contrary, I find AAR incredibly fulfilling when the foundations for realism is there. I don't fly sims to tweak settings in a mission editor just like I don't fly planes to load luggage.

What is popular is rarely true, what is true is rarely popular.