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Old 08-07-2019, 08:59 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
I wonder how many people will take only one R-24R and a R-24T
Well it can only carry 2 R24's.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:12 PM   #622
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Exactly. You can choose a mix if so desired. Thinking of the old tactic of shooting two differently guided missiles at once.
Can’t tell you how many timesI shot a semi active R-27 and they didn’t expect the R-27 thermal right in front of it
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:45 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
Exactly. You can choose a mix if so desired. Thinking of the old tactic of shooting two differently guided missiles at once.
Can’t tell you how many timesI shot a semi active R-27 and they didn’t expect the R-27 thermal right in front of it
Still a very valid tactic as the R-27ET is in pure pursuit while R-27ER is in lead pursuit.


But more I am using the T variant for snapshots to keep the wingman in bay, while I am dealing the other one.

Using one R and one T variant makes it easy to challenge in Su-27S a three F-15C with each having four AIM-120C missiles and two AIM-9 by going straight toward them, evade their first volley of AIM-120 by maneuvering and then put the strongest one in defensive with R, while then wait the second high threat wingman will come and you challenge him with T, and then you start snapping them out with R-60/R-73.

But the problem here is that Mig-23MLA unlikely is anywhere near as easy to fly as Su-27S is with a HMS. And R-23/R-24 is not like R-27 and R-60 is not like R-73... And lack of HMS renders Mig-23 incapable to perform such tactics, even when Mig-23 was tested with HMS.

There will be interesting times in future when F-4 gets out....
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:19 PM   #624
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But the problem here is that Mig-23MLA unlikely is anywhere near as easy to fly as Su-27S is with a HMS. And R-23/R-24 is not like R-27 and R-60 is not like R-73... And lack of HMS renders Mig-23 incapable to perform such tactics, even when Mig-23 was tested with HMS.
That is all true, but you're also comparing it in a scenario against 2-3 4th gens! Flown well I'm sure it will be a dangerous opponent in equal numbers to the 4th gens, even if at a disadvantage. And of course, as you mention, when we get more Vietnam era stuff too.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:37 PM   #625
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I am expecting it to be quite useful in the current Blue Flag environment if they stick it into interceptor slots... Radar should be more or less on par with the current MiG-29A radar, just few km weaker.... the R-24s will perform more or less similar to the current un-updated R-27s... I see the scenario of running in... F-poling the amraam... getting the R-24s off... turning and out accelerating and outrunning the newer stuff...
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:51 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
Exactly. You can choose a mix if so desired. Thinking of the old tactic of shooting two differently guided missiles at once.
Can’t tell you how many timesI shot a semi active R-27 and they didn’t expect the R-27 thermal right in front of it
I see, you're just being a meanie pants then
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:52 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by FoxAlfa View Post
I am expecting it to be quite useful in the current Blue Flag environment if they stick it into interceptor slots... Radar should be more or less on par with the current MiG-29A radar, just few km weaker.... the R-24s will perform more or less similar to the current un-updated R-27s... I see the scenario of running in... F-poling the amraam... getting the R-24s off... turning and out accelerating and outrunning the newer stuff...
Or even better, limit Blufor to Aim7's...
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:33 AM   #628
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That is all true, but you're also comparing it in a scenario against 2-3 4th gens!
Not comparing to 2-3 F-15C but to Su-27S itself and its capabilities. If comparing to something Mig-23MLA it would then be the F-4 II Phantom with a similarities, and of course if we could have, a F-16A or F-15A or even F-14B (that we get).

Still, the helmet aiming device makes a huge difference in close combat. And the R-60 missiles would be as deadly then as R-73 was later on.

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Flown well I'm sure it will be a dangerous opponent in equal numbers to the 4th gens, even if at a disadvantage. And of course, as you mention, when we get more Vietnam era stuff too.
Sure, in equal numbers it will be as it is more about pilot and their tactics how the utilize the weakness of enemy and strength of theirs.

I am very much waiting Mig-23MLA, more than any other fixed wing aircraft really. Only a Mi-24P and possibly even AH-1"whatever" comes before it.

My dream after Mig-23MLA is that we get a Mig-27K a couple years later. It would IMHO complete the Soviet aircrafts for years in 3rd generation.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:48 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by FoxAlfa View Post
I am expecting it to be quite useful in the current Blue Flag environment if they stick it into interceptor slots... Radar should be more or less on par with the current MiG-29A radar, just few km weaker.... the R-24s will perform more or less similar to the current un-updated R-27s... I see the scenario of running in... F-poling the amraam... getting the R-24s off... turning and out accelerating and outrunning the newer stuff...
If we just could get a semi-realistic GCI, as otherwise you wouldn't do anything like that.
The written rule was that if the GCI doesn't see the target, you are not authorized to engage it.
The GCI commands were the law, you obeyed them when they issued a commands to you, what headings, altitudes, speeds, what targets, when to activate radar, lock target, fire missile etc.
As the GCI had the full picture of the situation, they knew what was on the ground at air defense in own and enemy, and they knew where the enemy and own aircrafts were. So their much higher situational awareness that only now is approaching with a Link-16 and F-35 digital cockpits that gets transmitted to the pilot through his visor. So now in F-35 a pilot is doing the decisions that the GCI did on Soviet era a small team of tactician officers. Mig-21/23/27 etc pilots didn't need to know the full picture, only to follow what GCI talked to them. Even in dog fights the GCI knew better than a pilot in the air as the good GCI knew what the enemy is about to do when they were not read to do it themselves.

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The Aggressors mimicked the Soviet use of GCI in order to complete their re-enactment of Soviet fighter doctrine. According to Robert “Kobe” Mayo, then a major in the initial cadre of Aggressors back at the 64th FWS, Nellis:

They were a fantastic asset. These guys flew with us, briefed with us, were part of the post-flight debriefing, and made it possible for us to do our mission. During our air-to-air engagements they were in there with us and we felt that they were as valuable as another wingman. I remember flying against a flight of two F-4s. During the debrief, I was playing my tape recording of the engagements and you could hear my GCI controller talking to me as if he were another fighter pilot participating in the fight.
At one point in the fight I was engaged with one of the F-4s and “Stump”, my GCI guy, was talking almost non-stop.

“Kobe, you can press your fight … the other F-4 is across the circle from you … Kobe, you’ve got 40 seconds left before he’s a threat … Kobe, come off hard right. The other F-4 is your 5 o’clock and 9,000ft, closing.”

I did break right, picked up the other F-4 and continued the fight. During the debrief when the F-4 guys heard my tape they were convinced that I had brought another wingman into the engagement.
They said, “There is no way any GCI controller could have that much awareness of what’s going on by looking at a radar screen. And he is not talking like a GCI controller, he’s talking like the fighter pilot that he is!” They were really upset and I’m not sure to this day that I convinced them that I was the only T-38 in the fight. Our GCI controllers were absolutely fantastic.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:08 PM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
If we just could get a semi-realistic GCI, as otherwise you wouldn't do anything like that.
The written rule was that if the GCI doesn't see the target, you are not authorized to engage it.
The GCI commands were the law, you obeyed them when they issued a commands to you, what headings, altitudes, speeds, what targets, when to activate radar, lock target, fire missile etc.
As the GCI had the full picture of the situation, they knew what was on the ground at air defense in own and enemy, and they knew where the enemy and own aircrafts were. So their much higher situational awareness that only now is approaching with a Link-16 and F-35 digital cockpits that gets transmitted to the pilot through his visor. So now in F-35 a pilot is doing the decisions that the GCI did on Soviet era a small team of tactician officers. Mig-21/23/27 etc pilots didn't need to know the full picture, only to follow what GCI talked to them. Even in dog fights the GCI knew better than a pilot in the air as the good GCI knew what the enemy is about to do when they were not read to do it themselves.
that's correct. Mig-23 and Mig-21 were organized in Air defense squadron which only do tactics in combination with Air defenses commanders in frontline defenses using a different GCI signal receiver. And then Mig-23, Mig-21 and Mig-25 working for Air force with another GCI receiver.

Mig-23 and Mig-25PD both have an IRST TP-26Sh under the nose to combine IR and SAHR missiles in interception sorties.

All was designed to be ordered and guided from GCI commanders with an interception point.

The current AWACS service is useless for this kind of interception. The Fighter Collection should make a plan to at least modify the current AWACS adding a choose option in the threat picture call for the interceptor pilot in his radio menu, then make slave the selected bandit for a final interception for the right point.

Now we get Flanking and hot and cold direction, with bearing and altitude. All this information does not show an interception point.

Edit: As we can do in CA slot, giving orders for AI flights groups to attack targets, the same can be made for an specific interception order. Using CA players as GCI commanders it is a good idea, or maybe they have another better...
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