Jump to content

Spitfire first take-off; first "landing" observations


Recommended Posts

I have tried and tried with 0 assistance, really struggling with it - have had to settle on 35% assistance to successfully take off for now. Maybe revisit it again after I am more used to the aircraft...

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 327
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I have tried and tried with 0 assistance, really struggling with it - have had to settle on 35% assistance to successfully take off for now. Maybe revisit it again after I am more used to the aircraft...
Remember, even during take off roll, if one wants to counter torque with rudder it's still necessary to use brakes in order to steer. May be that tricks you. Also, don't use full boost to take off, follow Wags video guide and use only +8Lbs, more than enough to take off while easily tackling with torque.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember, even during take off roll, if one wants to counter torque with rudder it's still necessary to use brakes in order to steer. May be that tricks you. Also, don't use full boost to take off, follow Wags video guide and use only +8Lbs, more than enough to take off while easily tackling with torque.

 

 

S!

 

I will give that a try, thanks!

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a couple of questions for anyone familiar with this aircraft...

It seems to me that the tail wheel is not really free floating like it should be. After you release the left or right braking the aircraft does not continue in the direction it is pointed but instead continues to turn. I look at the tail wheel and it has not returned to the neutral position. I have to apply braking in the opposite direction to get the tail wheel to swing back to center. Does anyone know if that is how it should work. Seems like too much friction on the tail wheel turn axis to me.

Also, the aircraft turns sharply with full rudder even if the brake is not applied at slow taxi speed. Is this normal?

 

slyfly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Around the pitch axis, the spit seems veeeery sensitive. Without calibrating the axis curve it is nearly uncontrollable for me with my hotas t.flight and so i nearly crashed during takeoff. I instantly got an angle of attack of about 60° or so :D And then the instructor has the nerves to say "keep the stick pulled and release it gently" :pilotfly:

 

 

Yes... it is horrible to fly w/o expo in the controls. I do like the plane though... very nice...

I don't have the ability to do that..... Or I don't think I do...

Saiteck AV8R-01 stick... I don't think it does.... I could not hit a dam thing.. so over sensitive.... Very sloppy.... so perhaps that is why..??? Funny though, I can shoot w/o issues with the jets including the F5E Tiger II..

 

Other issue... My frame rate went down the toilet! I was about 100-50FPS (when it was VERY heavy) Normally ran in the 160fps....

 

Is this a update issue??? 30FPS and only a pair of FW190 and me down low?... no way it should be that bad.


Edited by Hermit713
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I can not seem to take off or land this thing. I can manage a takeoff at times and it is pretty ugly, with 35% assist. Forget it with no assist, at least for now.

Landings are horrible, usually break something.

 

Also this thing seems very twitchy in the pitch axis, and I am flying with an extension. I keep adding in more curvature but does not seem to be helping much.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
Well I can not seem to take off or land this thing. I can manage a takeoff at times and it is pretty ugly, with 35% assist. Forget it with no assist, at least for now.

Landings are horrible, usually break something.

 

Also this thing seems very twitchy in the pitch axis, and I am flying with an extension. I keep adding in more curvature but does not seem to be helping much.

 

My steps for reliable takeoff and landing based on instruction for Mk. IX pilot:

 

Takeoff:

1- Set elevator trim to neutral.

2- Set rudder trim full right (clockwise). However, I prefer ¼ clockwise.

3- Propeller control (RPM), fully forward.

4- Flaps up.

5- Full back stick.

6- Gradually increase boost to boost +7, +/- 1. This should be done in about 6 Mississippi’s.

7- Use careful rudder inputs to keep tracking down the runway.

8- At 60 mph, move stick to neutral and allow tail wheel to rise.

9- At 90-95 mph, she will lift off at neutral stick.

 

Landing:

1- Undercarriage down at 160 mph.

2- Propeller control to 2,650 RPM.

3- Flaps down at 140 mph.

4- Final approach at 95 mph with just a trickle of power.

5- Over the runway threshold at 90 mph.

6- Gradually flare to be between 60 and 70 mph and make contact on three points.

Note: For a good landing, do NOT be over 70 mph or fail to make a three-point landing. This will often result in a bounce.

7- Use deliberate and timely rudder to correct any veering off center-line. Be careful though not to over-control.

8- Once below 60 mph or so, use gentle wheel braking to maintain tracking down the runway.

9- Once at a halt, raise the flaps.

 

Also, for stick and rudder, I use a dead zone of 5 and a curve of 15

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice vid.

How do you have your brakes mapped?

Also, I noticed lower RPM on final - not fine pitch?

Type of rudder pedals and mapping?

 

Cheers,

 

i7 5960x 3.0@4.2GHz/ DDR4 16Gb 3000MHz @ / ASUS Rampage v крайняя x99 / SSD 240GB ASUS RAIDR Экспресс PCIe / 2xSSD 512GB raid.0 / 2xHDD 1Tb raid.0 / GeForce GTX Titan X / ASUS Rog Swift PG348Q 3440x1440/ HOTAS Warthog ™ / TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My steps for reliable takeoff and landing based on instruction for Mk. IX pilot:

 

 

Many thanks Wags, that should be helpful will give it a try!

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a couple of questions for anyone familiar with this aircraft...

It seems to me that the tail wheel is not really free floating like it should be. After you release the left or right braking the aircraft does not continue in the direction it is pointed but instead continues to turn. I look at the tail wheel and it has not returned to the neutral position. I have to apply braking in the opposite direction to get the tail wheel to swing back to center. Does anyone know if that is how it should work. Seems like too much friction on the tail wheel turn axis to me.

Also, the aircraft turns sharply with full rudder even if the brake is not applied at slow taxi speed. Is this normal?

 

slyfly

 

The reason you see both those things is the positioning of the main undercarriage. They are mounted in front of the centre of mass of the airframe so the tail will sit on the ground. The drawback of that situation is that the momentum of the aircraft will always try and increase any turning forces because the mass of the aircraft acts like a pendulum.

 

So yes, it is entirely realistic.

 

Trouble is, it makes them a real handful when it comes to ground handling. The only way to effectively control them is to keep the mass from getting too far away from the direction of travel. So, correct any deviations well before they start to allow the pendulum to gain momentum, as they naturally attempt to overtake the main legs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always feel like I'm landing on a rubber runway with the WWII birds. The bounces seem really exaggurated.

 

Try raising the flaps just before or as you touch down.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
Many thanks Wags, that should be helpful will give it a try!

 

My first day or so learning to land her were difficult too. The most common problem being landing too fast and/or landing just on the main wheels, and not getting ahead of the aircraft with rudder to keep her tracking straight.

 

Also, I find landing in VR MUCH, MUCH easier.

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason you see both those things is the positioning of the main undercarriage. They are mounted in front of the centre of mass of the airframe so the tail will sit on the ground. The drawback of that situation is that the momentum of the aircraft will always try and increase any turning forces because the mass of the aircraft acts like a pendulum.

 

So yes, it is entirely realistic.

 

Trouble is, it makes them a real handful when it comes to ground handling. The only way to effectively control them is to keep the mass from getting too far away from the direction of travel. So, correct any deviations well before they start to allow the pendulum to gain momentum, as they naturally attempt to overtake the main legs.

 

thanks Neil....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a couple of questions for anyone familiar with this aircraft...

It seems to me that the tail wheel is not really free floating like it should be. After you release the left or right braking the aircraft does not continue in the direction it is pointed but instead continues to turn. I look at the tail wheel and it has not returned to the neutral position. I have to apply braking in the opposite direction to get the tail wheel to swing back to center. Does anyone know if that is how it should work. Seems like too much friction on the tail wheel turn axis to me.

Also, the aircraft turns sharply with full rudder even if the brake is not applied at slow taxi speed. Is this normal?

 

slyfly

 

Yes, it's called groundlooping and DCS and BoS are the only WWII flight sims, which simulate this effect. Your description shows it's modelled correctly, at least from physics point of view, because I admit the tailwheel animation is a bit lacking (like in other DCS warbirds to be honest).

 

Every airplane (or even a simple pushcart) with fixed wheels at the front and freely swiveling wheel at the back, when thrown off a balanced and straight path of travel, will continue to turn and tighten the turn sharply by itself until swiveling wheel is at the front and fixed wheels are at the back. If rudder is efficient enough to counteract this tendency, than fine, but usually at low RPM it is not and only applying opposite brakes can straighten the plane out.

 

Actually, rudder in the Spit is most efficient of all DCS warbirds, and makes the plane turn even at relatively low taxiing speeds and RPM so You don't have to use brakes all that much compared to the German ones (don't have to use them at all during takeoff for example). True, Mustang is easier, but only because it has steerable tailwheel and that makes it a completely different animal.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After some practice I find taking off is relative easy.

I use some slight nose down trim and 1/4 right Rudder trim.

 

Full right Aileron and Stick 1/2 back at the start of the run, then as I start to gain speed, after having applied 9-12 lbf boost, I first bring the Aileron back towards center and the the Stick to neutral.

I don´t have to use the Rudder much, but when it starts to veer too much I tap the Brakes with adequite amount of Rudder input.

 

The Aircraft takes off almost from it´s 3 point attitude.

 

For landing I use 2 tick nose up trim, neutral Rudder trim and approached at 140 mph.

 

Droping the landing Gear and then after I have verified it´s down and locked I bring the Flaps down and check for the nose down pitching moment.

 

90 mph over the fence and then bring the Throttle almost fully back to idle as I flare the Aircraft for a 3 point landing, bringing the Throttle to idle at touch down.

 

Now it´s important not to bounce ! - Landing should be smooth.

 

Bring the Stick fully back and apply Brakes and dance the Rudder.

Be carefull not to brake too hard - or You might nose over.

 

Dancing the Rudder really means vigilant use of the Rudder Pedals.

 

Nose over also happens much easier if You did not bring the Throttles to idle.

 

The right use of Rudder is much harder in a sim than in real life, since You would feel any lateral movement almost before it´s seen, but in the Sim we only have visual cues.

 

The most important thing I found is the touch down...

Making a "greaser" is the best way to keep in control.

 

Any bounce, be it Main Wheel bounce or Tail Wheel bounce quickly makes You loose control.

 

Main Wheel bounce is moct often casued by touching down to fast or too hard, or if stalling just above the Runway.

 

Tail Wheel bounce hapens if You don´t keep the Stick back after touch down and or brakes too hard, so the Tail raises and falls back down.

 

What the Spitfire lacks compared to the other DCS warbirds is a lockable Tail Wheel.


Edited by fjacobsen

i7-10700K 3.8-5.1Ghz, 32GB RAM, RTX 4070 12GB, 1 x 1 TB SSD, 2 x 2TB SSD2 TB,  1 x 2 TBHDD 7200 RPM, Win10 Home 64bit, Meta Quest 3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be really curious to see a real Spit pilot try ours. I doubt the real thing is THIS hard to kerp straight.
The question is getting used to the brakes. In order to steer, and so keep her straight, you have to use brakes all the time as using rudder pedals only doesn't work. It's different than anything we flew before, so takes time to get used to it. Once you realise how it works, she taxies fairly easy, far easier than 109, Dora, or even P-51 IMHO. Set your brakes to a comfortable button in your joystick as you'll be using it all the time, and I mean all.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also Cliffs of Dover!

 

Nah, You can taxi all day in CloD without using brakes at all and directional instability might happen in last part of roll-out only if someone badly mishandles the plane. So the effect is kind of there I agree, but it's never such an important factor as it is in DCS. But let's not get offtopic, as extended discussion of other sims is not welcomed here.

 

As for DCS Spit, ironically, landings are easy for me - as long as I touch down gently in 3-point attitude it's no more difficult than Bf-109, but I still haven't developed a reliable, bulletproof technique and controller settings for taking-off without wobbling all over the place :D.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...True, Mustang is easier, but only because it has steerable tailwheel and that makes it a completely different animal.

Yea, I was all like - I do a takeoff in Mustang with 0 ruder assist, Spit can't be so bad. Sure, the taxi and takeoff in Spit is more or less a panic mode for me atm. This beast is probably the most difficult module in DCS.

What I think makes a big difference and why the taxi and takeoff in Spitfire is so changeling is that apart of free tail wheel that the spacing of front wheels is short.

F/A-18, F-16, F-14, M-2000C, A-10C, AV-8B, AJS-37 Viggen, F-5E-3, F-86F, MiG-21bis, MiG-15bis, L-39 Albatros, C-101 Aviojet, P-51D, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Bf 109 4-K, UH-1H, Mi-8, Ka-50, NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf... and not enough time to fully enjoy it all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take-off assist at 0% is ridiculous. At 100% way too easy. 50% feels like Cliffs of Dover, so I reckon 25% for a 'real feel'.

 

Landing, no probs at all. throttle off, back stick, full up trim, gear at 180, flaps at 140, dab a bit of throttle on, shut it at the threshold, back stick and wait.....thumpatty thump. Jobs a gud 'un.

 

Not fiddled with input curves at all btw, but my, this Spitty is feeling soooo good.

 

Excellent job so far, in my humble opinion.

 

Edit: This is in 'sim' mode. It would be helpful if posters would state whether they're in 'easy' or 'sim' mode, before commenting on experience. Not that I'm aware that the FM is different for either, but still...

 

Cheers chaps, happy flying.


Edited by Dooyar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...