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Whats you strategy to keep track of moving targets with the TGP?


Ayindi

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Hi,

I sometimes have issues to keep track of targets especially when they are moving and I am wondering how you guys handle it. Maybe I can get some hints or maybe just confirm that its a hassle sometimes...:D

Basically, I have issues when I fly over the target turn around and then usually the TGP focus is lost and I have to find my target again. I guess this happens because the TGP tracks things visually so it cannot track them when it cant see them. So only when not masked and within gimbal limits.

What I usually do is set a markpoint and go from there searching it again meaning that if I need too much time finding it again (usually its ok, because the targets did not move far from the point) I have to turn around again... rinse and repeat... I think the markpoint is the only thing that will really stay at that point since the SPI will also move sometimes (I am still not sure, what the rules for let call it "unwanted SPI movement" is - does it have to do with masked/gimbal limits as well?)

In flat areas this is usually no big issue, but in the mountains it can become a real hassle. So I'd like to know if you have any hints or how you do it. :)

 

Thanks!

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I think the main thing you need to work on is your general situational awareness. Of course mark points 4-ever, but try relying less on the TGP, and more on looking out of the cockpit and get a mental image of where everything is, and where you are in relation to everything else. That will make reaquiring masked targets a lot easier.

 

If you are used to beeing heads down looking throught the TGP it's hard to break that MO, but it really does help to not rely too much on the TGP.

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Agreed, less reliance on the TGP is certainly a skill that every DCS pilot can benefit from in the long run.

 

On the other hand, being able to use the TGP efficiently without sacrificing your SA is of equal importance. This is especially true if you need the TGP to employ the desired weapon on the moving target. GBU-12s, for example, can be used to good effect on moving targets and they require terminal guidance from the TGP Laser.

 

Basically, I have issues when I fly over the target turn around and then usually the TGP focus is lost and I have to find my target again. I guess this happens because the TGP tracks things visually so it cannot track them when it cant see them. So only when not masked and within gimbal limits.

 

Ayindi, tracking moving targets can definitely present a challenge. Using mark points is a good idea but if you're looking for a way to keep the TGP FOV on the target at all times then here are a couple things to consider.

  • Be aware of the TGP mode. You're correct, the TGP will not continue to track a target when masked. You want to be in POINT mode to track a moving vehicle but be aware if the TGP goes into INR RATES. This can happen before the pod properly masks and if not caught in time you will likely lose track of the vehicle.

 

  • Be aware of your aircraft position relative to the target. Ideally, while you're searching for/planning an attack on your target you do not want to be overhead it. Even if you believe you're above the IR SAM MEZ.

What will help you to keep a moving vehicle in your pod FOV is if you 'stand off' from the target and set up a race track pattern. If done correctly from medium to high altitude you can even be flying completely away from the target and the TGP can remain in point mode.

 

One other option is to fly parallel the target area by putting the target on your 1-2 o'clock position. Although eventually you will fly past the target, if done early enough (or if you give yourself enough space) you will give yourself plenty of time to select and employ a weapon.

 

I think the markpoint is the only thing that will really stay at that point since the SPI will also move sometimes (I am still not sure, what the rules for let call it "unwanted SPI movement" is - does it have to do with masked/gimbal limits as well?)

 

If the TGP is your SPI generator then yes, whatever it looks at is automatically your SPI. So if it goes into INR and wanders off the target then you can't just slave it back to the target with 'china hat fwd long'. The very bottom left of the HUD will tell you what sensor is generating your SPI. It can be HUD, TGP, TAD Hook, STPT, MK PT, MAV or IFFCC. This is handy to keep in mind.

 

Another thing to consider is that if you manoeuvre too aggressively you are going to throw the pod out because its gyros can't keep up. When you're using the TGP to scan or track targets, aim to keep manoeuvring to medium level turns if possible.

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Thanks for your input! :)

Well situational awareness is a problem thats right. While I basically have an idea where my target should be in the area (so basically I think I would be able to roughly point my finger on it if asked) I think its still not easy to "map" this easily to the TGP. My tactics is to use the TGV (not 100% sure about the name - the small square in the hud to point my TGP to the right direction in front of me)

So what I get from your answers is basically that I was more or less on the right track... :) There seems nothing I am missing, it just requires patience and practice. (like fly another NM away from the target to give you a little extra time finding it again) or flying parallel to it.

 

I know I can see the SPI generator in the bottom left of my screen, but it actually takes really much thinking for me to figure it out... :D I guess its just practice, practice and even more practice... ;)

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Very good advice, Dusty! :thumbup:

 

Just a few more things from my experience.

 

Practice is of course the key. It takes a good long while to be able to handle the aircraft and its systems, maintain situational awareness, and communicate with AI units or human players, all at the same time.

 

In order to keep the TGP on the target, it helps to always bank to the side the TGP is mounted on. Most default loadouts put the TGP on the right wing in my experience, so I try to keep the target area to my right (and vice versa in case the TGP is mounted on the left wing).

 

On a side note, I read that pilots also prefer to set up the TGP in the MFCD according to where the pod is mounted - left wing, left MFCD, and of course right wing, right MFCD. Setting this up during startup means one less thing to remember during battle.

 

When my side owns the sky and there are no ground threats beside the current target, I prefer to just orbit around the target at maybe a 10 to 20 degree bank, maintaining roughly 8 to 10 nm to the target. That way, the TGP can see all the details, and if zoomed out I can get a relatively good overview. At 4 or 5 miles, it's just too close. Plus, around 10 nm usually allows a good run-in for all the different weapon types.

 

I actually need to force myself to look out the window regularly. It feels weird, taking the eyes off the TGP. But it helps massively in order to maintain SA.

 

Markpoints are a huge help in order to keep track of things in case the TGP goes foobar and you are forced to find them again, that's definitely a good habit. :thumbup:

 

In complex situations, I like to write down what a markpoint is about in case I can't remember it in the heat of battle.

 

Anyhow, in new missions I easily get task saturated and have trouble keeping up with everything - but since it's no less difficult for real pilots, this just shows that one can never have too much training and experience. :)

 

One thing you could do is training this particular task. You could either create a mission yourself (the Mission Editor looks a bit overwhelming at first, but it's an amazing tool and not that difficult to get into) where you just set up a group of vehicles, give them some waypoints, try to find and then follow them.

Or pick a mission where this happens already. Save Badger is a good example where, in mission 1 or 2 IIRC, several groups circle around the good guys and need to be taken out. For training purposes, it's not really ideal because the ingress takes a long time. On the other hand I like the scenario and the missions are really superb. Maybe others have good examples of missions with moving targets; off the top of my head I just don't remember any right now.

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One thing that helps me is that I never load an ECM, they're useless anyway, which allows me to load my sidewinders on the opposite side freeing up a little bit more visibility for the TGP. This is especially useful if you like to orbit the AO.

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  • 1 year later...

A structured pattern of attack is also helpful.

 

Obviously, Vs humans, you don't want to be highly predictable, but since you're only fighting 1s and 0s*, you can basically fly a traffic pattern. Look at your course, turn the indicator to your attack heading, break left after firing, turn "down wind", turn "base" and hit them again. Once you establish a pattern and rythm, targeting gets easier.

 

(*Unless you're attacking humans controlling the vehicles)

 

Using the Z markpoint (last weapon impact) also helps.

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Guys, thank you. However, my problem is that I can't get the TGP to lock onto and track a moving target. Therefore, I can't make it SPI and slave weapons to the moving target.

 

Shouldn't the TGP be able to track a moving target in Point mode?

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It should be, yes. Have you tried using different FLIR modes? There must be sufficient contrast against the background in order to track the target. I can't say I've done a lot with the A-10 in Normandy but I've had no issues in NTTR or the new Caucasus recently.

 

Thank you, the problem just seems to be with the Normandy Map.

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Thank you, the problem just seems to be with the Normandy Map.

 

I just tried in 2.5 Normandy with some Tiger MBTs on a road with lots of trees on either side.

 

At first I couldn't get it tracking at all, but as soon as I switched to WHOT it tracked almost perfectly. Later on I switched back to CCD and got intermediate to good tracking results.

 

Doesn't seem to be a global problem with that map.

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I just tried in 2.5 Normandy with some Tiger MBTs on a road with lots of trees on either side.

 

At first I couldn't get it tracking at all, but as soon as I switched to WHOT it tracked almost perfectly. Later on I switched back to CCD and got intermediate to good tracking results.

 

Doesn't seem to be a global problem with that map.

 

You are correct. I just set up another test scenario and changed the time of day from 7am to 10am, and I was able to use the TGP to track a moving vehicle.

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Dusty and Yurgon pretty much said everything about it but i got 1 thing to add.

 

Whenever you spot a target via TGP, get your head out of that MFCD screen and spot that unit visually. It takes 5-10 seconds to do this but you will know which road the target is on, where he is headed, are there are any crossroads ahead, is there anything that you can use as a landmark in the case of going blind. It helps immensely.

 

Operation piercing fury's 3. or 4. mission is perfect for practicing this. You have to track jeeps and a helicopter in that mission. Tracking that helicopter is a pain in the butt though, ive never managed to track it all the way myself.

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