Please bring back model visibility options

Can you IRL?

If you KNOW they were there for sure. Pilots do have good eyesight and those are moving objects against a static ground.

You want them flash or what?

What part of "I don't like the idea of labels or any sort of artificial helper like dots over planes" did you not understand?

Computer graphics is what it is. It's mathematically correct now.

"mathematically correct" does not mean much in this context. Even 1+1=0 is "mathematically correct" in some cases.

I can understand that some more effects are needed when ie. plane deflects sunshine.

And exactly this is one of my complaints. But wait.... you said "mathematically correct". So is it or is it not?

Face it: Quite a few complain about visibility.

I truly don't understand why people are against having better visibility. Well I sort of do.

They are in the realm of "F you, got mine." As in screw you because everything works for me. So screw what you want. It's an incredibly selfish point of view and I just don't understand how that processes in some people's brains. They're not asking to bring back whatever the old system was, but a better one that can be controlled in MP servers which I don't ever do. I'm single player only.

Obviously this is an issue and I don't basically don't play because I can't see anything. All I like is ground pounders so this is a problem. I didn't know this was an issue for everyone and I posted a thread about this in the DCS 2.5 forum. It was deleted.

Here is a fact: Many people (not all) have problems seeing targets and identifying them. People want a solution since it is frustrating. Why some people are rallying against this is beyond me because it wouldn't affect them whatsoever if it's optional. I just don't understand.

As mentioned in another thread, your sense of scale, perspective, and FoV are drastically hindered compared to RL, so stop saying 'blah blah ten miles in real life blah blah' That doesn't matter. You're literally looking into a virtual world through a pixelated window.

This issue exists in EVERY game that has 1:1 scale. Only TRUE solution is a high FoV ultra high res headset, then you'll have that sense of proper scaling and perspective. Until then you have only the following options:

1. Accept the practical limitations of PC technology and stop bitching about real life. This isn't real life and it's going to have these kind of issues at least another 10-15 years. Probably longer. Keep in mind the game outright derenders at set distances for performance reasons.

2. In line with 1, use the tools available, like zoom, labels (if available), and train yourself in good spotting habits. Looking around too much it's easy to miss tells and movement that reveal objects.

3. Long term, ED may be persuaded to reimplement model enlargement, but for now they seem disinclined and are counting on technological advances to alleviate the problem long term. In the short term, I understand it causes issues with various things right now, which is why it was removed in the first place.

I've been playing flight sims for decades and this issue has existed with all of them, it is nothing new. Stop acting like it somehow is more serious than it is, it didn't make games unplayable fifteen years ago, and it doesn't make DCS unplayable now if you make use of what's available to you.

I've always played with model enlargement off, and from this and prior past experiences, I can guarantee that 90% of the problem is poor spotting habits and personal choice (like refusing to use zoom).

Labels and model enlargement are a crutch that teaches poor habits and poor discipline, FACT, and being used to it is why you guys have so much trouble. I've seen it time and again running my own clan for four years, people would come in with casual backgrounds and immediately run into a wall because I always disabled that crap and forced them to improve their powers of observation.

People who want model enlargement are welcome to want it, my point though is that a LOT of these sort of issues come from bad practices and inflexibility regarding utilising workarounds,''I don't want to do it that way''

How I could go on about your post Zhukov. Your not the only one that's been flying sims for decades and there are numerous excellent examples of how to implement model visibility. I have no idea what you've been playing but its not the experience of a lot of us.

So what's the problem then? I'm sure "all the servers" have labels disabled as cheat as well but personally I find the model visibility option much better than labels which flat out break the game immersion. And in the end it's nobody's business how I do my offline flying.

Agreed.

I can guarantee that 90% of the problem is poor spotting habits and personal choice (like refusing to use zoom).

This

I would suggest that using zoom is one way to play. Certainly if a person wants to do so, by all means. It is however not for all.

What the vast majority of people in this thread and many others are getting at is that zoom removes immersion and is not what most would prefer to do. For some this is fine but why would a limit be put on how we utilize this sim when there are obvious other ways to go about it that don't break immersion at all.

I would suggest that using zoom is one way to play. Certainly if a person wants to do so, by all means. It is however not for all.

By not using it, they’re completely handicapping themselves in the game. It’s not the devs job to coddle people who won’t help themselves. This topic gets really ridiculous when you realize this is what it boils down to.

That's what it boils down to for you. Not all.

As mentioned in another thread, your sense of scale, perspective, and FoV are drastically hindered compared to RL, so stop saying 'blah blah ten miles in real life blah blah' That doesn't matter. You're literally looking into a virtual world through a pixelated window.

 

This issue exists in EVERY game that has 1:1 scale. Only TRUE solution is a high FoV ultra high res headset, then you'll have that sense of proper scaling and perspective. Until then you have only the following options:

 

1. Accept the practical limitations of PC technology and stop bitching about real life. This isn't real life and it's going to have these kind of issues at least another 10-15 years. Probably longer. Keep in mind the game outright derenders at set distances for performance reasons.

 

2. In line with 1, use the tools available, like zoom, labels (if available), and train yourself in good spotting habits. Looking around too much it's easy to miss tells and movement that reveal objects.

 

3. Long term, ED may be persuaded to reimplement model enlargement, but for now they seem disinclined and are counting on technological advances to alleviate the problem long term. In the short term, I understand it causes issues with various things right now, which is why it was removed in the first place.

 

 

 

I've been playing flight sims for decades and this issue has existed with all of them, it is nothing new. Stop acting like it somehow is more serious than it is, it didn't make games unplayable fifteen years ago, and it doesn't make DCS unplayable now if you make use of what's available to you.

 

I've always played with model enlargement off, and from this and prior past experiences, I can guarantee that 90% of the problem is poor spotting habits and personal choice (like refusing to use zoom).

 

Labels and model enlargement are a crutch that teaches poor habits and poor discipline, FACT, and being used to it is why you guys have so much trouble. I've seen it time and again running my own clan for four years, people would come in with casual backgrounds and immediately run into a wall because I always disabled that crap and forced them to improve their powers of observation.

 

People who want model enlargement are welcome to want it, my point though is that a LOT of these sort of issues come from bad practices and inflexibility regarding utilising workarounds,''I don't want to do it that way''

I agree. This isn't real life and people should stop bitching about it being real life. It's a game.

Therefore, there shouldn't be a problem offering the option to be able to see the targets, even though it may not be "life-like."

Labels and model enlargement are a crutch that teaches poor habits and poor discipline, FACT, and being used to it is why you guys have so much trouble. I've seen it time and again running my own clan for four years''

This is funny.. poor habits and poor discipline for what? Most people want the sim to accurately reflect real life flying in combat conditions and I can tell you it does not in its current state. 1 to 1 scale may work out mathematically but at least when pertaining to BFM, scaling helped make the sight picture more accurate. Obviously it caused issues but having an option would be nice. Other sims handle this differently and there are pros and cons I’m sure, but for WVR combat, scaling is a must for realistic flying until trchnology improves. Btw I don’t know if it was my imagination but this latest update seems to have improved scale somehow? Anybody notice that. DCS is great and the level of detail is appreciated, but this is a major issue to anybody who wants realistic depiction of bfm. This is the main reason why people still play Falcon BMS. Dogfighting feels more realistic despite all the incredible graphics of DCS. Sorry for the rant but people must understand that there are lots of folks who do not use DCS for this reason alone.

scaling is a must for realistic flying until trchnology improves.

The DCS engine cannot scale up the 3D models like Falcon BMS. Watch Wags explanation here at 2:50

Ok, so since it can't be done a certain way then might as well quit.

What the vast majority of people in this thread and many others are getting at is that zoom removes immersion and is not what most would prefer to do. For some this is fine but why would a limit be put on how we utilize this sim when there are obvious other ways to go about it that don't break immersion at all.

Oh, boy, I have never expected this is the case. So you literally refuse to use the basic function that make you display real life image like 1:1 or better. Instead you want something not visible at certain zoom to be visible. You refuse to understand that if object's size calculates to less than 1 pixel in CGI it's simply not rendered at all or at least ie. turn from black dot to faint grey one to represent its blending into the background. But hey, if you don't zoom, you won't see anything - which is proper visuals simulation but instead want something to be visible - that would be immersion killer for sure. I want as real representation as can be. Why don't you?

I also would like to point out the graphic settings you do in the driver can make it worse (like FXAA and other postprocessing). If you do however use in game settings it's ED's job to work well.

Why not such option? There are already: game mode radar, labels, etc.

Like I said before, the refusal to make use of things like zoom is flatly stupid. I get it, I do. And I would love to have to use it either. I also am not inherently opposed to model scaling for those who want it. My point though is THIS IS A GAME, not real life, and no amount of technological wizardry will ever change that. Whether its this point or a myriad others, you have to make some compromises due to the fact its a emulation of real life. Yelling 'muh immerzion' then shooting yourself in the foot is a perfectly ok personal choice, but it's nobody else's problem you're stubbornly self defeating =)

Somebody asked what I meant by bad habits, what I'm referring to is the phenomenom where somebody has accustomed themselves overmuch to red and blue labels (or in this case oversized 3d models) that without those aides they're unable to see anything at all. Basically instead of learning to look for movement and silhouettes, etc, they're looking for these big slap-you-in-the-face aides.

Again, I'm not detracting people who want this, but as was already proven, you can see a helluva lot farther than 'a mile'. If you aren't able to see aircraft from multiple miles at present, the problem is indeed with the operator. Model enlargement would indeed make it easier, but it is far, FAR from 'inachievable'.

As for the experiences of others, yes, in many cases you get variance between users or PCs, but this specific item is fairly uniform across all participants. The game doesn't magically render differently, and monitors don't vary greatly in function or image. If the situation is that one user can spot the aircraft and another can't, that very much means one knows what to look for and the other doesn't.

Everytime you get shot down by a (player) aircraft you never saw coming, obviously HE could see YOU.

To mimic a real life levels of zoom you need to zoom all the way in. IRL you have a much bigger screen :-)

Are you trying to tell me I need a 65'' 4k Oled TV? Because that's what it sounds like from here. Get away from my wallet, it's starved down already :p I don't need any encouragement

... use the tools available, like zoom, labels (if available), and train yourself in good spotting habits. Looking around too much it's easy to miss tells and movement that reveal objects.

Unless zooming in makes aircraft disapear, right?

the refusal to make use of things like zoom is flatly stupid. .

I stopped reading right there.

Like I said before, the refusal to make use of things like zoom is flatly stupid.

Why worry? Never interrupt your opponent when they’re making a mistake.

Everytime you get shot down by a (player) aircraft you never saw coming, obviously HE could see YOU.

Perfectly stated.

@Sharpe

I think it's hilarious that most the people here asking for chia-models that grow when you add water, are probably the same people who would firebomb my apartment for suggesting a hook on the Hawk since we'll never get a T-45 =) ''Why do you care how I play'' doesnt deflect them either =D

This is the most anal retentive community on the internet but I love it anyway rofl

Sounds like an accessibility issue.

You can switch it on it you need it, so it's not mandatory.

A server could switch it on if the gameplay requires it, once again it's not mandatory.

The only argument against it is people who don't have color blindness or fly at high resolutions don't see the need. Well the feature clearly was not directed at them so they have the least say of all. The developers should listen to the people who used it and prefer it return.

It's super simple when your purpose is all but to be a pain in the butt about something that won't affect you.

That could be said about every feature request on these forums =) Yet everyone still cares. I see for most people it's ''I want it or don't mind, therefore valid.'' but if they don't want it it is clearly ''not valid''. Which is what we're all exhibiting here, with our chorus of 'git gud' =)

Call it necroing, but Phil Style made a good video about the visibility problem with changing screen resolutions which clearly shows that higher screen resolutions make spotting much more difficult due to the target pixel-rendering. So the higher your resolution, the smaller the target can get making it harder to spot when far away.

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

Call it necroing, but Phil Style made a good video about the visibility problem with changing screen resolutions which clearly shows that higher screen resolutions make spotting much more difficult due to the target pixel-rendering. So the higher your resolution, the smaller the target can get making it harder to spot when far away.

It's obvious that rendering calculations should decide whether there is a pixel or not, so that when on 1080p there is a pixel, it should be more than a pixel rendered on the same scene when on 4K. Likewise if there is merely a pixel on a 4K there probably should not be one anymore on 1080p.

The screen size is only relevant to the player because one can get closer or farther from the screen (thus changing monitor's real fov, not ingame). You can't complain about not seeing a single pixel on your iphone when holding it 50cm away.

Now, when the graphics engine does something wrong, ie. make pixel disappear when zooming in or render a pixel for 1080p while there is none at 4K, that is a serious bug, and should be reported as such, not as a moot visibility problem.