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Old 08-09-2018, 12:40 AM   #111
borchi_2b
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NixNB View Post
"The AP has it's own gyro and is always running"

This does not explain why the Gazelle lacks blowback, dissymmetry of lift and left skid high, right skid low takeoff/landing

Doesn't explain why yawing doesn't roll the aircraft (and vice versa)

Doesn't explain it's overly sensitive controls (can completely loop/roll the aircraft with only less than 10% stick input)

I'd also imagine the the AP SAS system would move the pilot's controls, showing what it's doing, like other SAS systems (unless the gazelle doesn't do that IRL, I would have a hard time believing that, if the SAS is linked to the control servos, thus the pilots controls)
sorry to sound rude or annoyed, but all. your points have been coverred already a few times. I am not going to explain it over and over again. Thanks for your comprehension
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:15 AM   #112
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Make a sticky post explaining these then, posting important info buried in 20+ page threads is not a very effective form of communication.

The only answers i've seen explain these almost always blames the SAS, and I can't imagine that's all you guys can say.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:08 AM   #113
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Just to add some experience I had...

We once add a failure in the tail gyroscope in our 365. Not much happened.

We just had the AFCS compensating wrongly the servos and we end up having oscillations.

I don't know the gyroscopes that Gazelle has. That is a fact. What I know it that the gyroscopes are there to help AFCS/SAS know the displacements, then the AFCS/SAS makes corrections to the servos connected to control rods.

Can you explain the SAS system and its gyroscopes? Or at least, do you have any references to learn more about it?

Thank you.

Also, can you point me out to the quotes explaining why the Gazelle does not have effects that I expect in every helicopter I type rated?

Thank you very much.

To reply to those who say that if you didn't fly you can't compare... then why the developers compared a Bell 206 cyclic displacement to argue for the Gazelle?

There are simply some factual errors here that I don't understand.

It's like there are different criteria here.

Again, obviously you can compare helicopters. They may not have the same performance, the same feeling in the controls... but I am yet to experience different experience like in the Gazelle modelled here. Maybe when Bell 525 with its FBW comes out, then I should expect something different.

I've flown the R-22 which is a helicopter with direct mechanic linkage to the rotor and for example a more complex machine like the AS365 and although they are different I feel the same feedback from rotor, and 365 is free of feedback, since it is hydraulic connected to rotors servos.

I am not saying what is wrong. I'm saying that your Gazelle flies so different that for me it is like a different class of aircraft instead of helicopter.

I would really like to fly a military Gazelle, but that is really far from happening and the civil one I can fly, it's not the same, right? So not comparable by some standards.

I have to agree with a fellow pilot that wrote here... it's all about expectations... and I cannot expect more, I guess, from a desktop helicopter sim.

And also, RL pilots perspective of a desktop sim is utterly subjective. But again, if I saw effects modelled in our modules in this simulator, than I would expect Gazelle to have those too.

Dissemetry of lift, roll-yaw couple (even if light one), blowback... etc.

Thank you.
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Last edited by Focha; 08-24-2018 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:56 PM   #114
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I have had a blast in the Gazelle as an overall experience, but I have come to terms with that the fidelity will be different depending on what module and who is making it. Obviously the FM has some issues or there would not be this many threads or upset users. I think a lot of this stems from expectations that Gazelle 342M should hold the exact same level of quality as the Huey, Mi8 or K-50. That is next to impossible for a new 3rd party to achieve for their first project (no offense PC). Those modules are considered to have the best flight models of any sim out there today. With help from Kamov, access to the Mi8 and boatloads of info on the Huey...

Not here to kill the discussion, but it does not really move along to something productive. In the end: Better FM = better reputation = higher sales and happier users. So how can we help with FM development to get it were it needs to be to compete with ED/BST modules? Any programmers? RL Gazelle pilots? Engineers? I am sure some will offer a helping hand if asked. It will build a really good relationship with the DCS Gazelle community aswell
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:32 AM   #115
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Very simple example of a fault in the FM. Just start up the helicopter. Apply power to just under hover. And you'll see you can move the airframe with the cyclic but not the rudder.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:34 AM   #116
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Hmmm, isnt what you have wrote on post #13 of this thread different from what you have wrote in post #103?

Quote:
Originally Posted by borchi_2b View Post
...
About bank angles of the Gazelle a very important fact has to be known. As soon the AP and the gyro are activated, another system is running in the background to enhance flightsafety and an easier controlability of the helicopter for combat use. This system is callaed "SAS", as far I remember the correct name is Stability Augumentation System, but I would have to check that again, which is not im portant for the function it provides.
This system is designed to support the pilots and counter tendencies of the airframe that you try to neglect if possible to increase safety of flight during combat. According to the french pilots the system has 2 sides, a good and a bad one. Good one is that it enables you to fly semi automatic in cross country flights. Bad part is, if you fly more aggresiv you have to fight the systems tendencies, which is the reason why some of the pilots switch of the AP or the gyro for example.
I also switch of the trim when I fly her in DCS, then she feels even more natural to me, but that is just me and everybody has to find thier preferred way of flying her.
This SAS has no real activation button by design in the SA342M cause it is directly linked to the gyro and the autopilot.
As soon you switch off certain functions the SAS is also deactivated.
...
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...2&postcount=13


Quote:
Originally Posted by borchi_2b View Post
Hi at all. I talked to Patrick about it again and in the end I asked him if we. ever mentioned that the gyro and the AP are linked to the SAS in the 342m but are there for the purpose of autohover and automated flight and no matter if or if not engaged, that. the SAS is running in the background of the helicopter all the time as soon the batteries provide enough power at the end. We came to the conclusion that some how it must have been lost in the hundereds of forum entries. So for not keeping. track if we mentioned and highlighted it I have to apologies.

So i state it here again. even if you dislink the gyro and the ap from the SAS by switching them off, the SAS is still running in the background, which makes the helicopter more stable then others. We recieved the information why this was done and unique to the 342m from the pilots with similar words: "this was done to increase the stability and to give. us the freedom to work more efficient as a fireteam and reduce workload, cause on a battlefield flying is just a tiny bit of the whole action in the cockpit, so the french army had a request to make. the flight more safe"...
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...&postcount=103


Just read through the pages and saw the difference.
That info from #103 should be in the manual, if its not there, right?
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:13 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borchi_2b View Post
Hi at all. I talked to Patrick about it again and in the end I asked him if we. ever mentioned that the gyro and the AP are linked to the SAS in the 342m but are there for the purpose of autohover and automated flight and no matter if or if not engaged, that. the SAS is running in the background of the helicopter all the time as soon the batteries provide enough power at the end. We came to the conclusion that some how it must have been lost in the hundereds of forum entries. So for not keeping. track if we mentioned and highlighted it I have to apologies.

So i state it here again. even if you dislink the gyro and the ap from the SAS by switching them off, the SAS is still running in the background, which makes the helicopter more stable then others. We recieved the information why this was done and unique to the 342m from the pilots with similar words: "this was done to increase the stability and to give. us the freedom to work more efficient as a fireteam and reduce workload, cause on a battlefield flying is just a tiny bit of the whole action in the cockpit, so the french army had a request to make. the flight more safe"

maybe this helps a bit to understand this helicopter. and yes, the SAS has an own gyro in itself. I would have to ask one of. the mechanics how it. is linked to the cyclic and actuators though.

I have read all the postings here and yes, this is a never ending cyrcle it seems, that is heated up now and then. I am sure this will happen even when, if, a new product is released, even if people have never flown the other. stuff.

as for the efm question. for helicopters in DCS there there is no such EFM existing, according to the coder we. mentioned before, only AFM.

Since. a lot was written during the past 24 hours I hope to see some comprehension that I am not going. to. answer everything, and yes, as dimitrov said, we have a discord channel where everybody can join and talk to us directly or ask questions.
Just an interesting find in the Gazelles Flightmanual.






Yes this is from the 341, but I don't think there is a difference to the 342 in this chase, as the 342's SAS can also fail.

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