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Gazelle FM Minor Gripe


104th_Money

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Ok, so I do sort of like the new FM. Its definitely different than before.

 

Ive noticed the roll changes when pulling or dropping collective, but it seems a bit too exaggerated.

 

The biggest thing for me now is when I am coming in for a landing and transitioning to hover, I have to keep the aircraft banked to the right so it doesnt drift to the left.

 

Ive watched numerous videos on YouTube and have yet to see a Gazelle leaning right during landing unless it was an intentional maneuver.

 

Money

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You can see it frequently in this, or these, vids too. Right skid low.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ive noticed the roll changes when pulling or dropping collective, but it seems a bit too exaggerated.

Money

 

DISCLAIMER: I have no formal rotor wing training.

 

Me too. Translation is one thing, but these roll changes seem abnormal. It reminds me of a 3D matrix math error where the forces would be in world coordinates instead of the aircraft's local frame.

 

It also feels to me, the power-change-induced yaw and roll seem to manifest themselves mutually exclusively.

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DISCLAIMER: I have no formal rotor wing training.

 

Me too. Translation is one thing, but these roll changes seem abnormal. It reminds me of a 3D matrix math error where the forces would be in world coordinates instead of the aircraft's local frame.

 

It also feels to me, the power-change-induced yaw and roll seem to manifest themselves mutually exclusively.

 

 

The roll changes are correct.

 

If you take a moment to think about the difference between advancing blades and retreating blades, and the speed and angle of attack difference from the left and right sides it might become more clear why those effects happen.


Edited by Scrape

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Ok, so I do sort of like the new FM. Its definitely different than before.

 

Ive noticed the roll changes when pulling or dropping collective, but it seems a bit too exaggerated.

 

The biggest thing for me now is when I am coming in for a landing and transitioning to hover, I have to keep the aircraft banked to the right so it doesnt drift to the left.

 

Ive watched numerous videos on YouTube and have yet to see a Gazelle leaning right during landing unless it was an intentional maneuver.

 

Money

 

 

Is this in 1.5 or 2.0 money?

I generally tend to adjust for changes quickly when landing or moving into a confined attack hover position. So I may not notice what you are commenting about.

I also tend to bring the gazelle in to land with a small amount of forward drift as this just works perfectly for me.... I like forward drift with the Huey too.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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No.

Induced roll after a brupt variation of collective is totally fanciful. No physical reason can explain that. A yaw variation would have been correct however.

Well, I don't know much about the Gazelle, but can it be that it has a mixing unit that automatically adjust the tail rotor (and also the main rotor tilt) in relation to the main rotor torque? Some helicopters do have them.

If so and you have your physical reason for induced roll: tail rotor drift counteracted by the main rotor tilt, i.e. roll of the fuselage. Bigg and fast collective movements (something you really should not do) will make it rather pronounced I assume.

The mixing unit, for what I understand, can be of both mechanical/hydraulic nature similar to a correlator, or electronic/computer driven similar to SAS and AP. You may or may not have any feedback to your pedals depending on system I believe.

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No.

Induced roll after a brupt variation of collective is totally fanciful. No physical reason can explain that. A yaw variation would have been correct however.

 

I think the term your looking for is Blow-Back and Blow-Forward, (also termed Flap Forward and flap back) as the collective applies the same change of AoA to all blades there is a difference of lift produced by advancing and retreating blades resulting in a greater difference of lift and hence a roll.

 

See Ch 12 Principles of Helicopter Flight by W.J. Wagtendonk

 

You might also want to check out Transverse Flow Effect as well. ;)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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If you have the MI-8 take a look in the manual at page 42. For a stable hover you have to trim the MI-8 with a 2-2.5° roll trim to the right.

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I'll have to have a flight and check, but if this is only starting to happen when you slow down to a hover it may be accurate, all helicopters lean one way or the other in a hover, except coaxials or tandems, at higher speeds the tail rotor doesn't have to work as hard, and you trim it to produce less thrust, so the angle is far less apparent.

 

The reason is the tail rotor, and it's vertical position relative to the CG (almost always above the CG)

 

For instance in a helicopter with a main rotor that when viewed from above turns clockwise, the tail rotor pushes air to the right, this means if level, the helicopter will drift left, as aswell as providing a counter-torque, it is providing a small linear thrust, which can only be countered by assuming a slight right rolled position.

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I think the term your looking for is Blow-Back and Blow-Forward, (also termed Flap Forward and flap back) as the collective applies the same change of AoA to all blades there is a difference of lift produced by advancing and retreating blades resulting in a greater difference of lift and hence a roll.

 

See Ch 12 Principles of Helicopter Flight by W.J. Wagtendonk

 

You might also want to check out Transverse Flow Effect as well. ;)

 

RBS won't produce a roll, the force is coming from one side of the disk, but it is translated 90 degrees because of the gyroscopic effect, so ends up manifesting as a sudden nose up tendency at high speed....

 

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RBS won't produce a roll, the force is coming from one side of the disk, but it is translated 90 degrees because of the gyroscopic effect, so ends up manifesting as a sudden nose up tendency at high speed....

 

 

Not sure about RBS (Retreating Blade Stall) I'm assuming the text refers to air speed and rotor speed within normal flight envelope here.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Yes, in the normal flight envelope, asymmetry of lift will produce a roll trim change, but at that point, the retreating blade has not yet stalled.

 

The asymmetry will also provide a resistance to pushing the nose down via the gyroscopic precession of the disk, which is why as you build speed you have to hold the stick forward to maintain what you're already doing, and progressively push more towards the stick limits to go faster, until you reach that point where you hit RBS and the nose flys up regardless of how much you push the stick forward.


Edited by Cap'n kamikaze
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Yes' date=' in the normal flight envelope, asymmetry of lift will produce a roll trim change, but at that point, the retreating blade has not yet stalled.[/quote']

 

Yes but I don't recall saying we had RBS? As far as I understand the instantaneous change in AoA by changing collective causes a change in the dissymmetry of lift and presumably effects such as flapping to equalise the dissymmetry of lift occur at a time after the change in collective position. hence the roll effect.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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The asymmetry will also provide a resistance to pushing the nose down via the gyroscopic precession of the disk, which is why as you build speed you have to hold the stick forward to maintain what you're already doing, and progressively push more towards the stick limits to go faster, until you reach that point where you hit RBS and the nose flys up regardless of how much you push the stick forward.

 

I know in the R44 you have to push the cyclic forward as you gain speed, doesn't seem like you have to in the Gazelle. :music_whistling:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Sorry, I took your statement about inducing a roll to mean that.

 

To me a trim change is not a roll, most people when they talk about RBS they seem to think its going to roll the helicopter over.

 

No worries, also I don't use trim. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Try turning the gyros on and off' date=' and see if that makes any difference.[/quote']

 

Doing that doesn't seem to change the behaviour as far as I can tell. Although I could well have some control/input/software issues which I am trying to work through. I also usually fly the Gazelle 342L with AP and Trim and Gyro Off.

 

 

As for the induced roll effect when changing the Collective in flight I'm not sure if the amount of roll is correct however as far as flying the Gazelle it can be used to advantage when manoeuvring. I find I use this attribute a lot now. :D:thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Just test flown it, and even with the AP, trim and Gyros on, it does resist you, but only lightly.

 

All you have to do is establish forward flight, straight and level and let go of the cyclic, the nose will come up and you'll slow down.

 

Mmmm that would be a no, at least pick up transition into forward flight and yes two things occur forward flight and translational lift great, what I expect but at no point does the Gazelle start to pitch up. If I do not pull back on cyclic to continue climbing the Gazelle will attempt to proceed to impale it and myself into the deck.

 

I'm still going through settings and controls to see what is going on and mind you I could have it all wrong too, might even try a clean install. Grrr

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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