Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

I do hope the Harrier gets finished but I get the feeling we will be here again when they rush out F-15E from EA because their pipeline is full of projects which requires resources and coders.

Time will tell. Doing regular patches to Harrier from now on is a good start.

Regarding support, the ED forums cannot be considered an "official" customer support portal. If they were, the moderators would not be able to ban anyone because that would be denying customers the ability to receive support. That's why the ticketing system is the official support portal, and the forums are just for us to write walls of text in vain attempts to prove each other wrong! :lol:

Ticket system is for technical support, not to support for how to use the product.

If you can't install product, you make a ticket.

If you can't rise landing gear, you make a new thread.

If you can't activate the product, you make ticket.

If you can't release a bomb, you make a new thread.

....

You find a bug, do you make a new ticket or new bug report thread?

You can't find a manual page, do you make a ticket or new thread?

Support is multiform subject, and tickets are just official technical supports, while forums are official supports for customers to use the product.

And moderators can ban people if they can't behave in support forums.

What they can't do, is to remove product key from you.

Ticket system is for technical support, not to support for how to use the product.

 

If you can't install product, you make a ticket.

If you can't rise landing gear, you make a new thread.

If you can't activate the product, you make ticket.

If you can't release a bomb, you make a new thread.

....

 

You find a bug, do you make a new ticket or new bug report thread?

You can't find a manual page, do you make a ticket or new thread?

 

 

Support is multiform subject, and tickets are just official technical supports, while forums are official supports for customers to use the product.

And moderators can ban people if they can't behave in support forums.

What they can't do, is to remove product key from you.

You misunderstood me, but that's ok.

I do hope the Harrier gets finished but I get the feeling we will be here again when they rush out F-15E from EA because their pipeline is full of projects which requires resources and coders.

 

Time will tell. Doing regular patches to Harrier from now on is a good start.

We won't be here again re Mig23 & F15E and whatever other module because the community has got tired and lessons this time are being learnt. I know many people that did't buy into the Harrier after Mirage issues, i know of people that gave them another shot with the Harrier and well, enough said.

If Razbam do not alter their approach and soon within the community, combined with negative feedback as word spreads of their business practices, which it is now rapidly doing, they will have near zero customer retention and low influx of new customers.

Aka their business will collapse and their won't be these modules.

Personally I will hold on buying more modules from Razbam until the M-2000C and AV-8B are in a state that can be deemed close to finished.

I bought the M-2000C for almot 5 years ago, and it´s still not matured into release state.

I bought the AV-8B for more than 3 years ago, and many features are still not in - so for me it´s still EA.

Thats not a way to treat paying customers - EA rules or whatever is no excuse.

If a module is out of EA, then all features promised should have been added, and only minor bugs present - thats not where we are with either of those two modules.

It´s a real shame, cause both modules seems so promising, and acrually has some great features, but alot is still missing.

That's your personal opinion. Keep on defending RAZBAM an have a nice day.

I'm not defending Razbam at all. I'm countering your arguement that news about DCS and any modules, in-house or third-party, should only be announced here and NOT at various Discord-channels or Facebook in addition to being posted here.

There's absolutely no reason as to why news cannot be posted to other media as well as here. To claim so is, frankly speaking, outright silly.

That simply isn't true! They have banned a wide swath of PAID IN FULL customers for simply seeking info on the state of repairs for bugs and plans to finish the module across multiple platforms.

 

Yes, some were asking for it with sarcastic name calling and trolling but FAR TOO MANY were not. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely! Razbam has abused their authority across those platforms where there is no oversight by ED.

 

If RAZBAM has the time to post on Discord or Facebook they have the time to post here. Part of the ongoing complaint is that they aren't required to use these forums as the primary form of communication with DCS customers for DCS modules.

 

RAZBAM is going to have to deal with the salt, until their performance improves significantly over time. Much like the other 3rd party that lost confidence here. No one knew that 3rd party was working on a another module and they, at first responded poorly, but were able to have the professionalism to look inward and determine they made a mistake by not keeping an eye on sustainment for their existing module. They took it on the chin and we as customers were quite able to evaluate their response, accept their answers and timeline and put our grievances to the side to give them what they said they needed to catch up.

 

One patch isn't likely going to make up for the loss of confidence. It is no coincidence a large patch is being prepared collaterally and outside of this thread.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You're either deliberately misreading my post, or I worded myself poorly. And I'm thinking the first one is the case here.

My arguement is that Razbam and any other third-party is free to post on both Discord and Facebook, as long as they also post the same info here!

THAT is my arguement. I don't like that people like Chickensims and others were banned from their Discord unless, of course, people have been more about bitching, ranting and raving at them than actually asking engaging in meaningful conversations like the adults we all are (or at least should be).

Should Razbam moderate their Discord differently? Sure, one can argue that they should. Using mute/doghousing/mittens is a far better way to deal with unruly people, but hell, even ED has banned people from the forums and from what I've understood also subsequently from the game itself (NineLine and/or Bignewy, please correct me if I'm wrong). Sometimes you have no other options than to outright ban people when they can't or won't behave like sensible adults. And before you go there; Yes, I know that Razbam has been heavy-handed in the last week or so. I've been there for much of the time, trying to figure out just what the hell is going on.

The whole paying customer-arguement is idiotic. Maybe I'm used to our silly ways up here in the frozen, mountainous wastes of Norway, but if you behave like a muppet in a store here, you'll get chucked out of said store. The customer isn't always right, even if he paid money for something. Sure, it's always a case of whether or not one can lose the business and survive or not, but that's how it is. The moral is basically the same as in life in general: Don't be a d**k.

Yes, Razbam is going to have to deal with salt and vitriol, and that over time. I'm not arguing against that at all. And even after years have gone past, people will still remember this quackup, and some will never touch their products again at all (People still remember the FOS, CubanAce and VEAO-situation quite well, and it's been literal years). That's life, people are fully in their right to do so, it's their money after all.

You're right that one patch won't make up for the loss of confidence. It won't, the wound is basically caused by a 12.7mm LDMP-round to the chest (extra bellybutton where it goes in, large pizza where it went out), and the patch, although good from looking at the notes, is a band-aid in the current situation. But it WILL help pull that wound at least a LITTLE more closed than it is now, and if they continue to put out good patches but most of all: start communicating with us here on the forums, preferrably just as much as they do on Discord and/or Facebook then MAYBE they can come back from being the pariah of the DCS community like they are now.

I get it. These forums are pretty hostile on the best of days. We're all passionate creatures, and sometimes a bit TOO passionate. We can only hope that Razbam gets a new full-time CM in place, and fast, to act as a liaison between the RB-team and the community on a very regular basis and preferrably weekly at the very least. But having been both a CM and IRC ChannelOP before, it's a lonely, thankless job that you need a really damn thick skin for. I hope for whomever gets the jobs' sake that they're ready for what's in store for them.

I'm not defending Razbam at all. I'm countering your arguement that news about DCS and any modules, in-house or third-party, should only be announced here and NOT at various Discord-channels or Facebook in addition to being posted here.

 

There's absolutely no reason as to why news cannot be posted to other media as well as here. To claim so is, frankly speaking, outright silly.

.

.

.

I've got no problem with RAZBAM publishing their news somwhere else, but first of all they should do it on the official ED forum. If they do it here, the may publish it wherever they want to, too.

 

I would be careful about calling other users silly, just because they have other opinions than you. :huh:

I've got no problem with RAZBAM publishing their news somwhere else, but first of all they should do it on the official ED forum. If they do it here, the may publish it wherever they want to, too.

 

I would be careful about calling other users silly, just because they have other opinions than you. :huh:

I don't call other users silly. I call the opinion they stated as silly. Vast difference in those two, my friends, as you are not your opinion. :sly:

Concerning the use of the forums as bug reporting system has always bothered me. It's great if you want to have a conversation about bugs/issues, but as a reporting and tracking system it is horrible.

I for one, I know there are many more, would like see a change to the ticket reporting system.

1. It should be a searchable and browse-able data base for the customer to investigate weather his/her issue has been reported. Or what's going on with a particular module.
   
2. Update and add more reporting fields/filters. As it exists, there is only the bare minimum of info required. I would like to see fields as to Aircraft System/Graphics/Flight Model, ect...
   

The feed back to the customer seems OK. I've used the ticket system only a few times for non game related gripes and was satisfied with the experience. I don't think there were game issues reportable then. But that was a long time ago.

I know there is concern about the public messing around in the internal ED bug tracker, but separate public facing BT would offer a tremendous cost savings. It can't possibly cost any more in man hours than the current system, as I understand it, of scanning forums, passing to testers, testing, asking for track file, watching track file, acknowledging / reporting, ect... At least the scanning forums for bug reports can be reduced.

Let alone the endless duplicate reports because of a finicky forum search function.

Just food for thought.

And make it official reporting platform for modules. So we don't have to go through this again.

Please

Ït doesn't matter if it's posted to Discord, Facebook and their webpage.

 

As long as it also gets posted, by them, on the boards.

I can't really agree. I'm no Facebook or Discord user and I don't intend to be in the future. DCS is an ED product. The RAZBAM modules are made for DCS. So news should be posted on the official ED forum. As much as I remember we bought the modules on ED's site not within Facebook or Discord.

If RAZBAM has the time to post on Discord or Facebook they have the time to post here. Part of the ongoing complaint is that they aren't required to use these forums as the primary form of communication with DCS customers for DCS modules.

I made the sentence both of you guys apparently didn't read, even while being in bold fonts already, a litte bigger so you won't miss it

That's my POV as well. I don't mind them posting things on other channels, but I definately want to see those things here. And if they don't want to have discussions for whatever reason (as in control on the comments), they simply could lock those threads and ignore others which would inevitable pop up anyway.

If this is only about how game design works for everyone, how come RB are the only ones in DCS teasing module after module after module? Do they seriously expect to complete the AV/8B+, Mig-19S, Mirage 2000-5, AMX, Bronco, Lightining, Canberra, F-100, Mirage 3, Super Etendard, Strike Eagle, Mig-23, Bo-105, Ia-58, Sea Harrier, and A-29 (and probably more I'm forgetting) any time soon? If not, why even tease them?

On a positive note, VEAO had like thrice the amount of planes on their roadmap, without having shown a single shot even of any of those except for the Hawk and some very early shots of the EF. One of the main reasons I never bought their stuff, they told they'd do the world but were able to show absolutely nothing.

I take the WIP screenshots of 3D models, especially in such early states (incomplete and untextured) as something that might be coming from them since they're interesting in bringing those. My wild and uneducated guess is they didn't sign a contract yet with ED for all of those. AFAIK that's only the case with the F-15E and MiG-23MLA so far (plus them helping Miltech5 out on the Bo), all the others are still out in the open. So, it's better to take all that with a grain of salt until there's a real announcement.

One thing that we'd probably all agree with though is that RAZBAM definately needs more proficient coders to get the work done in time. The things they're going to bring to DCS or already have, but not completed yet are complex which needs more manpower, simply put.

would like ask for a refund on both my Mirage and the Harrier. I've got maybe 15min on the Harrier and dumped it like a hot potato, less than an hour on the Mirage, never went back to it.

The arrogance they showed in this thread towards paying customers were jaw dropping to say the least! I am also very disappointed in ED, letting bugs/features slide for 3 years, come on, there should have been warning bells going off left right and center. Unfortunately what it looks like I think the lure of big sales with the mud hen might have made them turn a blind eye, it's very sad!

And they are talking a follow up version already, this one not even...who am I kidding, nobody gives a damn!

I get it. These forums are pretty hostile on the best of days. We're all passionate creatures, and sometimes a bit TOO passionate. We can only hope that Razbam gets a new full-time CM in place, and fast, to act as a liaison between the RB-team and the community on a very regular basis and preferrably weekly at the very least. But having been both a CM and IRC ChannelOP before, it's a lonely, thankless job that you need a really damn thick skin for. I hope for whomever gets the jobs' sake that they're ready for what's in store for them.

This why I think a public facing bug tracker would relieve a lot tension these forums have.

I for one would not have my current attitude with Razbam, if I new ED was tracking bug reports and communicating those reports to the Third Parties, customers, and It's Self.

Having a closed loop, single source, transparent system of reporting would greatly reduced the work load of so many. Not to mention the perception of screaming into a black hole.

if whaen I make a report about any module I would to expect that it be investegated and comunicated the result of that investigation. If valid, reported to the Deloper and put on a clock, say two weeks (See what I did there?:lol:). Not to completed, but to remind ED to nudge the Developer.

ED:

• "What's up with this?"
  

• "You got a plan?"
  

Developer:

• "Yeah, it needs animation and waiting on pilot body for VR"
  

Then I could get that message in my inbox and know I am valued. All would be well and flowers would pick themselves.:thumbup:

This why I think a public facing bug tracker would relieve a lot tension these forums have.

Razbam did, i made it and guess what it got met with nothing but hostility on a weekly basis. no mater what was posted on it, someone will always complain.

Same as everything else Razbam related. it doesn't matter what they do they get nothing but grief and everything posted gets twisted one way or another.

Does Razbam modules still have bugs - YES but guess what so does every other module in DCS. they recently employed a new coder to help relieve the bugs and yet no one cared about that great news.

I own every module in DCS and proud to do so. it means newer and better modules can be made in the future. No dev is perfect, hell ED has its issues and heatblur still havent given us the F14a or the carrier they promised. but you know what its OK .. we paid for a EA product.

This is why i stepped down as the Razbam CM, this forum has turned toxic over the last 6 months and its got to STOP !

you're not actually interested in airplanes at all are you

you just need a parent figure to keep giving you attention

 

any of you who needs someone else to dripfeed you some feeling of self worth is sick in the head and should not be encouraged

 

grow up and dont bring your own personal issues into product improvement

 

or okay if you need an emotional service, go hire someone who actually offers that sort of service

dont turn this airplane sim into your personal psych therapy

Nothing worse than someone pulling one line, twisting a context for their own personal gain against a background of lots of messages to try and make a unjustified point and personal attack on someone. I suggest you spend a good hour and read the full thread, at the same time attempt to understand other people's viewpoint not just your own, those of experience users of the Harrier, that have genuine concerns.

Maybe the user should reflect on himself whether he likes to pull nonsense out of thin air and attempt to belittle users of this forum.

I don't see how your comment add's to the context or is anyway related to the Harrier issues specified in this thread and is totally unjustified and irrelevant.

Razbam did, i made it and guess what it got met with nothing but hostility on a weekly basis. no mater what was posted on it, someone will always complain.

 

Same as everything else Razbam related. it doesn't matter what they do they get nothing but grief and everything posted gets twisted one way or another.

 

Does Razbam modules still have bugs - YES but guess what so does every other module in DCS. they recently employed a new coder to help relieve the bugs and yet no one cared about that great news.

 

 

I own every module in DCS and proud to do so. it means newer and better modules can be made in the future. No dev is perfect, hell ED has its issues and heatblur still havent given us the F14a or the carrier they promised. but you know what its OK .. we paid for a EA product.

 

This is why i stepped down as the Razbam CM, this forum has turned toxic over the last 6 months and its got to STOP !

Hi decoy, good to see you post, although i appreciate its in an unofficial role given your statement 3 weeks ago.

Nothing can justify the lack of addressing the community in the place that is specified for doing so. Reporting genuine bugs and not receiving a response, for months and months on end is not toxic so please do not try and make that as a pretex or justification. The leadership is out of touch completely. Yes there are toxic elements of the community, we know that but there is also very experience people, that have real world experience and also over 30 years experience in this sector, they are also banned for raising justified concerns.

A CEO stating this is s**tstorm in a glass of water (55,000 views in 5 days suggests otherwise and one of the highest ever on these foums for the Harrier) and the internal disputes of who is Nineline, oh he's a moderator, a nobody its pretty unprofessional and quite frankly disgusting as i'm sure you will agree given your former position. The countless requests for support ignored on the link followed from the sales page for the module, over years, the complete refusal for the CEO to post anything that he cannot control direct access to. There are serious issues here and some of us are trying to help.

That will not happen unless Razbam stop burring their head in the sand or attempting to silence connected and well respected members of the community. This has gone way past a set of specific features missing or bugs now its actually the ethics of Razbam themselves, the inadequacies revealed and the management team's approach. You may wish to suggest to the Razbam management team that they take a few hours and read fully thought this post if customer retention forms part of their business plan.

As for other third party developers i'm surprised you commented on them but appreciate its like us from a customer perspective. They do not receive this level of criticism because they bring modules to a good fruition point but more than anything they COMMUNICATE on these forums, look at cobra's posts or UBoats etc to name a couple. They sell modules that are in line with the sales expectation, plus do not attempt to have X number of other asset artworks being teased. They also don't get teased as it's fair to say the artwork for example on some of their modules is probably the best within the game regarding say the F14, and Deka don't get grief because just look at their workrate this year since release (of which its a damn fine product, systems also). Ed got met with hostility last year as we all know but guess what they communicate, big newy and nineline constantly plus senor management. It stops things getting out of hand. I tried to warn you of this back in June. Compare there approach to Razbam's and you will see why we are in the position we are.

So i would say with the greatest of respect Decoy that constructive critique does not have to stop, nor should it. I think after 2 world wars and countless regional conflicts i think we can safely conclude that censorship and ignorance is a bad thing.

Razbam did, i made it and guess what it got met with nothing but hostility on a weekly basis. no mater what was posted on it, someone will always complain.

 

Same as everything else Razbam related. it doesn't matter what they do they get nothing but grief and everything posted gets twisted one way or another.

 

Does Razbam modules still have bugs - YES but guess what so does every other module in DCS. they recently employed a new coder to help relieve the bugs and yet no one cared about that great news.

 

 

I own every module in DCS and proud to do so. it means newer and better modules can be made in the future. No dev is perfect, hell ED has its issues and heatblur still havent given us the F14a or the carrier they promised. but you know what its OK .. we paid for a EA product.

 

This is why i stepped down as the Razbam CM, this forum has turned toxic over the last 6 months and its got to STOP !

Yes, that's exactly what it was! Everyone was hostile and toxic, otherwise there were no problems :rolleyes:

If this is only about how game design works for everyone, how come RB are the only ones in DCS teasing module after module after module? Do they seriously expect to complete the AV/8B+, Mig-19S, Mirage 2000-5, AMX, Bronco, Lightining, Canberra, F-100, Mirage 3, Super Etendard, Strike Eagle, Mig-23, Bo-105, Ia-58, Sea Harrier, and A-29 (and probably more I'm forgetting) any time soon? If not, why even tease them?

Just wow.....

Didn't realise that Razbam has so many modules under table to be put on it....

The other modules also have bugs is a fact. And that you have to give the manufacturers time to fix this is also out of the question. Only when you just don't see that things are moving forward in some way, which, as was so often the case, has fixed a bug and but has to discover 2 or more new ones. When people bother to report bugs to Razbam, but they are only very slowly or not at all fixed (see here https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=573&order=desc). If you have to wait months or years (e.g. the Sidewinder SEAM came in May 2020) until one or the other feature that was advertised in the shop comes (e.g. we are still waiting for GBU-32, and GBU-54). When you hear RAzbam has new coders and after months you still see no improvement. If you then take the Harrier out of the EA, where almost no one can understand this step. But when you read that Razbam has the the Mig-23, F-15, Falkland Maps, the Bo-105 the pipeline and has time for it ... And then you wonder that the mood here turns into negative. And the best thing that RAzbam can think of is to withdraw here, among other things with the reason that you can react better to the comments on Facebook and Co. (everyone can imagine what is meant by this), the CM also withdraws with the reason 'This forum has turned toxic over the last 6 months'. And as far as ED and Heatblur are concerned: Here you always know where you are, they inform the community. And the F-14A will probably come in October, see here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285634

Razbam is absolutely self responsible for getting all that toxic. They worked hard to earn it.

Have you ever asked yourself why there is not even 1% of this toxicity in the sub from other Devs?

Think about it.

No dev is perfect, hell ED has its issues and heatblur still havent given us the F14a or the carrier they promised. but you know what its OK .. we paid for a EA product.

Well, F-14 is EA, Harrier isn't.

Just wow.....

 

Didn't realise that Razbam has so many modules under table to be put on it....

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

The rest are way down the line. but hey i dont work for razbam and the above is my view not the official view or razbam

I own every module in DCS and proud to do so. it means newer and better modules can be made in the future. No dev is perfect, hell ED has its issues and heatblur still havent given us the F14a or the carrier they promised. but you know what its OK .. we paid for a EA product.

 

Excuse-me sir, but you can't compare. F-14 is a top notch piece of software and F-14A is a free plus, not a core of module.

Oh, and you are right about the issues with others developers, I bought the Supercarrier and can't use it. And have no answers from ED about the ridiculous performance problem.

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

 

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

 

 

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

 

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

 

The rest are way down the line.

To be honest, I don't really worry myself about the other modules they tease or even officially announce. What worries me is the Harrier module and the fact that has been out for so long and so many bugs, incomplete systems, and outright missing systems haven't been dealt with even when RAZBAM actually acknowledges them on either this forum, facebook, or their Discord echo-chamber.

I get that you got a bad deal. I didn't envy your position as a CM at all. Still, don't try to deflect this all on us when we are here because of the quality of RAZBAM's work and their business practices.

To be honest, I don't really worry myself about the other modules they tease or even officially announce. What worries me is the Harrier module and the fact that has been out for so long and so many bugs, incomplete systems, and outright missing systems haven't been dealt with even when RAZBAM actually acknowledges them on either this forum, facebook, or their Discord echo-chamber.

 

I get that you got a bad deal. I didn't envy your position as a CM at all. Still, don't try to deflect this all on us when we are here because of the quality of RAZBAM's work and their business practices.

HOW is me telling you what to expect next deflecting ?

Decoy, please look the difference in approach in communication between the developer and the community in this topic, and see that toxicity ceases to exist when working together.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282566