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[REPORTED] AGM65F+TGP locking issue (bug?)


Burner1111

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Hello gentlemen,

 

Is there lately any issues with AGM65F locking with the latest OpenBeta batch, as locking is (for me a least) extremely erratic/jumpy? I cannot get good, static lock. Attaching two track files.

 

In track:

1. Tried to find some hidden BMP's. IN RANGE was OK, but when MAVF starts to find target and locks it, it goes nuts as it cannot get solid lock. MAVF gets constant X's, as it locks and unlocks. Tried to "depress" in TGP SOI, nojoy. Tried to "depress" in MAV SOI, nojoy. Tried to move MAV cross in SOI to get a solid lock, nojoy. Even, if i get the lock from MAV, it's away from the object (not shown in this video).

2. Tried to shoot whatever was near to me. Tracking wht/blk polarity did not help. Tried to "depress", but did not help to get solid lock. Also tried to give MAV a SOI, did not help.

 

It was no issue with previous version, only in this. I have some mods installed (improved cockpit etc), but this is the first time I have issues with MAV locking.

 

Additional question:

1. If TGP+MAVF FOV will be overwritten by MAV, does it also overwrite the CCD/FLIR? We cannot use it through FLIR FOV hat? I couldn't find any info about this.

 

 

Thanks!

F-18 AGM65F+TGP cannot lock vs2.trk

F-18 AGM65F+TGP cannot lock.trk

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Hello gentlemen,

 

 

Did some additional testing after posting. Had no issues, when using only MAVF locking mechanism (no active or selected TGP in right DDI). Additionally, no issues with MAVE (can find, lock, shoot, kill target).

 

 

 

Thanks!

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+1. This has been an issue for a while. When you designate a target with the TGP the Mav will snap to the designated point and lock and unlock erratically. If you press undesignate/nws you will cancel the TGP lock but the mav will usually grab a solid lock afterwards. Pretty wonky behaviour.

 

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Laser Mavericks won't have the issue because it's always looking at the laser point once it's detected. The reason you're seeing this with the IR Maverick is because when designating a point on the ground near a valid target, the Maverick seeker is having trouble resolving which to look at. The seeker is uncaged, so it's basically saying "hey, you're free to lock up a valid target since you're not holding down the TDC," but it's also being told "hey, look at this point on the ground" at the same time.

 

This is what's causing the seeker to 'jump' rapidly between the two, it's getting itself confused between two almost conflicting instructions. When it happens, you should see the status in the top of the seeker page rapidly switch between CAGED/UNCAGED. If you Undesignate the ground point, the seeker should snap to the target and hold.

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After you get the lock with TDC depress, turn your MAV cam SOI; Uncage the MAV; Press Undesignate/Nosewheel switch. You now have control of your MAV cam and can do the little adjustment to the target. If you don´t press Undesignate switch, you will not be able to move your MAV cam, and lock the target with your MAV cam. It will be stuck to the TGP point.

That´s for the F version. E version works with TGP lock.

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Laser Mavericks won't have the issue because it's always looking at the laser point once it's detected. The reason you're seeing this with the IR Maverick is because when designating a point on the ground near a valid target, the Maverick seeker is having trouble resolving which to look at. The seeker is uncaged, so it's basically saying "hey, you're free to lock up a valid target since you're not holding down the TDC," but it's also being told "hey, look at this point on the ground" at the same time.

 

This is what's causing the seeker to 'jump' rapidly between the two, it's getting itself confused between two almost conflicting instructions. When it happens, you should see the status in the top of the seeker page rapidly switch between CAGED/UNCAGED. If you Undesignate the ground point, the seeker should snap to the target and hold.

Does it work like this IRL though? It'd be more logical to work as it did before, as in:

 

1) I designated a target, look over there, 2) once you look over there, try locking whatever you're seeing, 3) once you get a solid lock, keep it.

 

And it would repeat from 1) if you designate again.

Undesignating indeed makes it stabilize, but if we need to undesignate each time, we lose the TTMR and IN RNG cues. Of course, at this point, you don't need them anymore.

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I don't know for sure how it works in reality. I would assume that the Maverick's seeker polarity lock takes priority over the designation point, but it seems that right now they have equal priority over seeker control, so it just can't decide what to do. I don't fully know what's going on under the hood, only what it appears to be doing.

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I don't know for sure how it works in reality. I would assume that the Maverick's seeker polarity lock takes priority over the designation point, but it seems that right now they have equal priority over seeker control, so it just can't decide what to do. I don't fully know what's going on under the hood, only what it appears to be doing.

Very well put. I'm thinking it might be related to a previous issue, where, if you designated a point close to you and the seeker uncaged, it could potentially lock something random on its way to the designated point. They fixed that, but the current issue makes me think it's because of that fix. In the end, we don't know how it works IRL. The way I see it, there are four scenarios:

 

1) The scenario you describe. Equal priority, which means that the seeker continuously tries to lock stuff at the des. point. This is what we appear to be having right now.

 

2) There is logic that hands priority to the seeker only after it's slaved to the des. point. So it'd lock something and stay locked, but only after it's pointing to the des. point. This is that I think it should do, but that's just my opinion and not based on IRL experience/documents.

 

3) The seeker always takes priority, meaning that it'll lock whatever it finds as soon as it's uncaged, provided that the contrast is enough. It'd be up to the pilot to make sure to designate and uncage only in conditions where the seeker wouldn't "get stuck" on something else (like uncaging from a high altitude and well outside of the seeker range limits). This is what we had before and it got fixed.

 

4) The des. point takes priority, which means the seeker is slaved, but does not attempt a lock, until another action is taken by the pilot.

 

In addition, I tested with a lone vehicle target in the middle of the desert, with nothing else close by. The seeker still alternated between locked and unlocked state. This points to 1) being true in the sim right now. Undesignating with NWS does force the seeker to lock up something and stay locked, so I guess this works reasonably well for now. It's just a question of whether it's realistic or not.


Edited by Harker
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  • 2 months later...

Gotta say I'm a plus 1 to the erratic behaviour of the '65.

 

Using the TGP to find and lock target is fine.

Uncaging the mav when SOI tracks to the target location but from there things go awry.

 

*) It doesn't really lock up to the area. (as in OP)

*) I try un-designating (both in MAV and TGP SOI), but then the MAV seeker doesn't move with my joystick TDC slew commands. I can't refine the location to get a good lock.

 

I thought it was me but reading this makes me think there must be a glitch somewhere under the hood.

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Using the TGP to find and lock target is fine.

Uncaging the mav when SOI tracks to the target location but from there things go awry.

 

*) It doesn't really lock up to the area. (as in OP)

*) I try un-designating (both in MAV and TGP SOI), but then the MAV seeker doesn't move with my joystick TDC slew commands. I can't refine the location to get a good lock.

For the second point, does it work when:

1) You assign TDC priority (small diamond on top right of the DDI) to the IMAV page, before attempting to slew the seeker and

2) You slew with TDC Depress+TDC Slew?

 

 

Make sure you're not forgetting to do any of the above. Undesignating and subsequently slewing the seeker manually works for me.

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I'll check tonight but pretty sure I haven't seen my Mav move about independently from the TGP since before Christmas.

 

TDC priority / SOI would certainly be ticked.

Undesignate - I'm 99% sure I would have smashed that loads of times thinking it's slaved to the FLIR.

Slew IS with TDC depress. Haven't experimented with simple (not pressing TDC). Will try again tonight :-)

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I'll check tonight but pretty sure I haven't seen my Mav move about independently from the TGP since before Christmas.

 

TDC priority / SOI would certainly be ticked.

Undesignate - I'm 99% sure I would have smashed that loads of times thinking it's slaved to the FLIR.

Slew IS with TDC depress. Haven't experimented with simple (not pressing TDC). Will try again tonight :-)

If there's an issue, it should technically occur with any form of designation, not just the TGP. Try and see if the same happens (it should) with WPDSG, from the HSI.

 

The easiest thing would be to post a track, so we can see what exactly you're doing.

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Well.

Half way there I think.

 

Without a TGP everything worked well. MAV moving etc exactly how it should.

BUT - when I set the waypoint as the target on the HSI (you get the target diamond over the WP) the MAV sticks to it like glue. I can't slew it or anything. Turn the target on HSI off and can slew again. Makes sense!

 

Now.

With the TGP setting the target, the same happens.

Depress to set target, and MAV slews to it. BUT..... I can't undesignate it as a target. Pinky isn't working seemingly (yes i've checked the bindings to double doubt myself).

The HSI hasn't got any button ticked (target or waypoint) so it's not that.

 

Obviously the MAV is slaved to the target point, but I personally can't get it moving once it's locked on to the TGPs point.

 

Thinking about it, I'm making it too complicated. As the MAV sticks to the TGP like glue, if it isn't auto-locking due to it being a metre out I just slew the TGP and it get's it's lock........

**EDIT: Nah, it's not that easy!!

 

I'm sure it's a case of PIBKAC, but it is frustrating as I thought I had it figured lol

 

EDIT: Thanks Harker, I had this post ready to send before yours, but was running missile runs to make sure I'm not a complete oaf!


Edited by MrReynolds
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+++to this.

 

I have same problem with TGP + 65F. Very hard to lock target, it just so "jumpy".

MAV just slew to tgp, but cannot lock target properly.

 

It's need to be fixed.

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after slewing mav to tgp.

soi mav

press undesignate

 

2 things will now happen. if your within param it will lock the target and nothing more is needed.

 

if you out of range it will not lock the target and will have to slew.

 

"Depress to set target, and MAV slews to it. BUT..... I can't undesignate it as a target. Pinky isn't working seemingly (yes i've checked the bindings to double doubt myself)."

 

so if your not making the mav screen soi that is correct exactly what you stated.

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+++to this.

 

I have same problem with TGP + 65F. Very hard to lock target, it just so "jumpy".

MAV just slew to tgp, but cannot lock target properly.

 

It's need to be fixed.

 

your not in range.

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your not in range.

I was in range - 6-10 nm

 

 

I'm gonna try record video + track =)

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=250326

 

on the 2nd page post #17 i post a video of it not lining up and shaking. there are other inputs to this matter from this thread that maybe of use.

 

Hello there...

You using MAV ONLY; not TGP + MAV.

 

I don't have any issues with MAV 65F itself. I have problems with TGP + MAV. When u designating target by TGP.


Edited by Bl00dWolf

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So here it is. Look at this. :lol: OK, it's working probably (at least for this 2 "rocket runs"), but:

1) wrong targets (this MAV sensor misaligned with TGP, picking wrong targets, if they are close to each other)

2) Jumpy as hell

 

 

Or am I doing something wrong?

 

 

(pending quality)

 

 

 

So, 2 tracks, 1 mission, 2 videos on YouTube. Pls fix it. :smartass:

AMG-65F problem.trk

AMG-65F problem 2.trk

AGM65F.miz


Edited by Bl00dWolf

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it was just a short video to demonstrate the shaky lines if not in range when undesignating out of range. the diamond in hud is what my tgp is looking at, sorry i cannot find the whole video, only that clip.

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after slewing mav to tgp.

soi mav

press undesignate

 

2 things will now happen. if your within param it will lock the target and nothing more is needed.

 

if you out of range it will not lock the target and will have to slew.

 

"Depress to set target, and MAV slews to it. BUT..... I can't undesignate it as a target. Pinky isn't working seemingly (yes i've checked the bindings to double doubt myself)."

 

so if your not making the mav screen soi that is correct exactly what you stated.

 

Thanks for trying.

The MAV is SOI.

I can use it with MAV only, without TGP. I know what I'm doing (no offense to you or from me).

Once I put the TGP into the equation slewing no longer works. It's locked to the target point and I can't undesignate.

Slewing to TGP is great. Just the MAV lock is skitty as hell and unusable. (I CAN use it without TGP - honest ;-) )

Parameters in range etc - Just I can't refine my MAV lock by slewing from MAV SOI.

 

Maybe I'll make a video tomorrow.


Edited by MrReynolds
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Thanks for trying.

The MAV is SOI.

I can use it with MAV only, without TGP. I know what I'm doing (no offense to you or from me).

Once I put the TGP into the equation slewing no longer works. It's locked to the target point and I can't undesignate.

Slewing to TGP is great. Just the MAV lock is skitty as hell and unusable. (I CAN use it without TGP - honest ;-) )

Parameters in range etc - Just I can't refine my MAV lock by slewing from MAV SOI.

 

Maybe I'll make a video tomorrow.

 

as ur the only one w/ this issue, i suggest you post a trk of not having a tgp and mav working.

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For what it's worth here's the track.

 

At the start you can see my playing with the MAV seeker, moving it about. Setting a waypoint target on and off to see the uncaging going to the waypoint. Turn off waypoint target designate (pardon the wrong acronym) and can slew about like a dream. Everything's fine with that.

 

Then we move into the TGP bit where it tracks to the TGP lock, but I can't undesignate. I don't know if the track will show, but I do escape to check key bindings and the NWS / undesignate key is set correctly.

 

Basically it would seem I can't undesignate once I have locked using the TGP. The target diamond doesn't dissapear.

 

Like I said before in this thread - sure there's a PIBKAC somewhere;)

Test Mav.trk

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