What are user's impressions of F-5E's flight model and systems modeling.

What are user's impressions of F-5E's flight model and systems modeling?

Fidelity of flight model?

Reactivity and ruggedness or fragility of systems?

Night time and IMC flight and recovery>

Are just two Papa Fox-2 + guns, sufficient for DCS A-A?

Are countermeasures effective against SAM1 , IR SAM, IR A-A?

A-G weapons delivery procedures?

Is F-5E worth getting?

Thank you

My modules: A-10C, KA-50, Mig-21bis, FC3.& UH-1H

F-5E is a very convincing module in terms of FM. Performance is very close to the real -1 manual.

Not much of a night fighter -can be flown at night, but effectively employed? only in basic, low-threat scenarios. IMC flight is quite basic also, recovery in weather as bad as TACAN approach minimums is quite doable.

Weapons, countermeasures, depends on the mission of course. Tactics play a big part. For employment, try the -34 weapons delivery manual data and adjust from there as needed.

Worth getting? By all means. Can not think of a better module. But i like old-ish planes.

While I haven't checked the FM against performance charts, it seems to be pretty well done and believable. AFAIK it's the only BST aircraft (for now) that has ground effect properly modelled. It's similar to the MiG-21 - which I see you own - in that external stores and fuel load have a big impact on performance but otherwise it's quite easy to handle in all flight regimes. It's one of my favourite aircraft to just fly around.

As far as systems are concerned, the RWR implementation is, let's say, controversial. You might want to look up the discussion in the bug thread. The radar and the rest of the avionics work great. Another controversial topic is the gun dispersion which seems to be excessive.

Regarding ruggedness, it's a small, unarmored aircraft - you won't be shrugging off missile hits. One thing that (used to) break a lot is the Air Data Computer. I don't know if they changed it, but it's not something that'll bring the aircraft down anyway.

On the other hand - two engines. And not a lot of systems to break.

If you want to do some serious IMC flying, this is not your plane. There's no ILS, no ADF, no marker beacon receiver, no radar altimeter (!)... You do get TACAN and a homing feature in the radio to get you around the map, but nothing to stop you from flying into a mountain.

Are two AIM-9s enough? It can be challenging with just two. You need to wait for good opportunities, save them for when the enemy tries to extend etc. When in doubt, get closer and gun 'em instead. Also I have no clue about MP, I don't do MP.

I don't find the countermeasures any more or less effective than in other aircraft, just keep in mind you don't get many.

A-G weapons delivery is entirely manual. You set the sight depression to a value from a table in the manual, initiate your dive at a given IAS and altitude, make sure your dive angle is right, and release when you reach the right altitude. It takes practice and even then you won't be CCIP level accurate. One problem is, the tables we currently have are rather lacking.

Is it worth getting? In terms of just features-to-money or combat potential-to-money, there are other modules with a better value proposition. But I really like this plane, despite its limits. I like and fly it more than planes I *should* like and fly more, if you get what I mean ;).

It is in my opinion, currently the best fast jet module when it comes to being realistic and well made.

Two missiles can be tricky, but compared to its chief adversary, the MiG-21, AIM-9P5 is quite better than MiG-21Bis' missiles. The gun itself is also arguably better/easier to get hits with compared to MiG's GSh-23L, I find it to be more effective.

It can haul surprisingly big bomb load, decent amount of 70mm rockets too. However, it has no targeting systems for air to ground ordnance, so its either using dive bombing tables, or getting good with using them seat of pants / gut feeling style on targets of opportunity. To put the bomb load in perspective though, it can carry significantly more than either the Viggen or the MiG, even though it is a lighter/less powerful aircraft. Centre pylon can even mount Mk-84 or 5xMk-82s on MER.

As for night ops, it would be only good for intercepting a bomber or transport, and not much more else.

RWR is the best among 3rd gen aircraft in DCS, it is the usual US style RWR which tells you what threats are around and which one is locking you etc. More intuitive and helpful than MiG-21 and Viggen's RWRs.

As for the NAV systems, it just doesn't have much.

For multiplayer, depends, if there were more era specific, or mission oriented servers it would do just fine, but don't expect it to do wonders in airquake servers like 104th. It can't do IFF for one, so in mixed aircraft servers it is a TK machine, and then low number of missiles become more pronounced on servers like these where the only goal is to take off, kill as much as possible, and then maybe-perhaps land, or maybe not.

Countermeasures are there, but aren't particularly numerous. They'll most likely help you shrug off a missile or two unless you use them very judiciously.

Personally, it is one of the modules I rate the highest. Very fun to fly, pretty good match with MiG-21, very fun with its hands-on air to ground approach, and very realistic when it comes to performance and systems compared to most other modules.

However, whether it's worth for you or not, depends on how you primarily enjoy DCS, if your main means of enjoyment in DCS is airquake PvP, then it probably won't be your cup of tea. If however, you like the sim for getting hands on with iconic aircraft, and enjoy learning and operating them as best as you can, it is one of the best modules out there in my opinion.

Is F-5E worth getting?

It's a fairly 'old' aircraft, so somewhat limited/challenging to use, compared to A-10C or FC3 aircraft.

Like the F-86F, the module lacks a SP campaign and after learning it's systems, IMHO you need to fly in MP to get a lot of time out of it.

The short range F-5E radar 6° (2 bar x 3°) search sweep makes it less useful for finding targets than the longer range and wider 4 bar sweep of the F-15/M-2000C radars, so intercepts are more reliant on AWACS and visual spotting in the merge.

The F-5E works well as 'strike' bomber with self defence capability or as a legacy A2A fighter.

It's weaknesses are the lack of any real navigation capability (INS, GPS, NDB, ILS, etc.) for low level bombing or a modern radar for A2A. These issues were addressed with different equipment specs or real world upgrades but aren't equipped in this version.

Things I don't like in the module :-

• the "quiet" RWR with 'new man' tones but no scan audio
  
• ease of skidding if using keyboard/button for wheel brakes (analogue toe brakes might be better?) - requires rapid tapping of keys, so feels a very 'game' like solution, rather than learning to brake correctly.
  

I had 2 months use out of the F-5E before I picked up the M-2000C in a sale. I haven't flown the F-5E since as, despite the M-2000C being less faithful/accurate and still having many bugs, it has much better navigation and radar, so found it more 'fun'.

I don't regret buying the F-5E (the F-5 'Freedom Fighter' is a favourite of mine) and I'm sure to fly it again (just wish BST had gone with a version with better navigation/ADF/ILS rather than RWR but it is what it is). YMMV

Here, you got opinions from two exact opposite sides DCS spectrum in my and Ramsay's posts. I guess an assessment of a module couldn't get any better than this, as you get the both sides :).

got the mig21 and the f5. i think i wasted my money on the f5 :(

Simply the sounds dont gives anything enjoyable for my ears. and i found it impossible to do a level flight, trim is always higher or lower. i press tu button the fastest as i can but it goes or too up or too down. but never straight for me.

I really like the F-5. It's pleasant to fly and while it's on the older side of the aircraft line up it holds up fairly well in terms of making plausible missions. Support assets are lacking though. The FC planes and M2000, etc can do well in DCS because they have stronger radars. The F-5's radar is a good thing to have but it doesn't give you much strategic SA. I've given up using it as a BVR tool and only use the AAQ modes. The all seeing AI unfortunately gets some unfair advantages over you because of this, especially when visibility is poor. Friendly AI won't do much to help you besides calling targets they see, but once you get into a furball it's easy to get lost. There is AWACS, but DCS AWACS is subpar at the moment.

I did not check flight performance vs the real aircraft, but it feels reasonable. The only thing that stuck out to me really was that it's so easy to fly on the edge, but there is wing rock and such at high AoA. There is also very noticeable ground effect in this plane. More than any other modules I think. It made learning to land it different from most other aircraft in DCS.

The F-5 is limited in air to air payload, though I find that the performance hit from more missiles might actually offset the advantages unless you can be guaranteed to shoot first. The F-5's gun has a very large dispersion for some reason, and I don't think it's realistic as is, but it's still easy to use with dogfight gun mode thanks to the sight. Without a lock guiding the sight, the dispersion can make aiming tricky.

i found it impossible to do a level flight, trim is always higher or lower. i press tu button the fastest as i can but it goes or too up or too down. but never straight for me.

I have this problem with all DCS modules. Trim isn't really precise I find. I can get the F-5 to fly level if I'm careful though. The F-5 needs both pitch and roll trim, especially since the fuel is not necessarily balanced from side to side. If you trim for roll first, pitch trim becomes easier.

The f5 is hands down my favorite module. It's reproduced to a high level of fidelity, bugs are relatively few and it's just damn fun to fly.

This is an old plane, you fly it not a computer, however I find it isn't hard to fly or fight in it as long as you know it's limitations. Level flight, takeoffs and landings are more involved than let's say the m2000 and need some practice but it is forgiving near the limits and visibility is excellent.

IMHO it is the more capable of the old jets and its a2a weapons are good(P5) but only 2 and short range, so not very convenient for airquake style mp. It's a2g ordnance is more than enough and I find the challenge of a perfect dive toss more enjoyable than pgms but that's just me.

What I found about the f5 is that despite it being a small relatively unarmored plane it's damage model is quite good with hydraulic leaks, fires and other failures modeled wonderfully. Something not said about many other modules.

I got in a gun fight with a mig21 in mp and had an engine fire and dual hydraulic failure and the plane handled like you would expect from a crippled bird proving quite a challenge to land.

I think you will like it. Every time I fly it I feel much more engaged and challenged that any other module.

 

 

 

I have this problem with all DCS modules. Trim isn't really precise I find. I can get the F-5 to fly level if I'm careful though. The F-5 needs both pitch and roll trim, especially since the fuel is not necessarily balanced from side to side. If you trim for roll first, pitch trim becomes easier.

If you guys are experiencing problems trimming out the modules i suggest reading the following post and attached articles:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3191755&postcount=10

Gives a little bit of insight

Regarding the F-5 i can only confirm the positiv statements. It's just a ton of fun especially coupled with NTTR and the ACM and BFM Campaigns. Previously i was flying the A-10C exclusively, but the F-5 quickly hooked me for A2A.

Cheers

The RWR does not operate as it should

-The ingame RWR doesn't have continuous audio. Meaning once you get "new guy" beeps it goes quiet. Even if its locking you, there wont be a sound. Its an odd feeling seeing 5 SAMs locking you and not hearing a thing.

-The ingame RWR shows only 'search' or only 'fire control' radars.

--Real life RWR will show both, or switch if it detects a FCR.

---Also, its not known what the devs think are 'search' radars vs 'FCR'. As an example, one might expect search radars to be early warning radars, ATCRs, Air surveillance radars (big bird, snow drift, etc.). But the devs have also lumped threat acquisition radars (like the SA-6 acquisition radar) into this category. Meaning that currently ingame you can only see the SA-6 system in search or only if its locking you, it wont show both and wont inform the pilot of the transition. IRL, no system would be so poorly designed to not automatically inform the pilot that the threat system is there(search radar) and has switched to locking you(lock radar).

The Radar, IMO, is poorly rendered. The returns all have the same size and shape, making it look like it was made in power point. I'm glad they added the beam sweep trail, but I think more could be done to bring out that analog radar/CRT feeling. A good example is the viggen radar, with a continuous analog feel to it, while the F-5's radar seems like it has few discrete points.

Here is former F-4 pilot describing his analog pulse radar.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3213553&postcount=540

But for me, the RWR is more important and more likely something they are willing to fix. The radar isnt the end of the world, and would take alot more for them to improve.

I will get those images (F-5 NATOPS vs. DCS F-5 vs. other known analog pulse radars) later today.

EDIT:

APQ-159 radar display

Other pulse radar displays (including some PPI)

APQ-120 (very similar design to APQ-159)

Radar/CRT effect

http://i.imgur.com/XXNjD6e.gifv

My homemade guess at what a properly rendered APQ-159 would look like, but also with the CRT glow effect like in the gif above. Refer to the NATOPS images i posted above for accuracy.

So is BST going to address the Radar and RWR?

Yep, would love to hear if making the radar more realistic is possible, or if there is a reason behind why it is currently in it's current state

If they fix RET and radar then this bird becomes quite perfect in my mind. It's already my favorite module to-date. Like an old corvette. Not the fastest or best handling, but a hell of a lot of fun to drive.

It's my favorite aircraft to fly. I'll sometimes just take it out in an empty map to fly through the mountains and land on runways and roads.

WVR fighting the Mig21 is tremendous fun, especially in multiplayer. The F-5 loves to fight down low.

The flight model and systems damage modeling really are a lot of fun to experience.

Example: I once took a hit which shut down the hydraulic system that handles lowering landing gear. Upon returning to base, I discovered on my downwind leg that the gear weren't coming down. Gear handle down, no gear lowering noise, no green lights. A part of my memory flashed to the emergency procedures and remembered the emergency gear handle. I pulled that, heard a *thunk*, but saw no green lights. Ah! I remembered from the manual that you have to "rock" the aircraft to get the gear to lock down and go green light. I rocked the wings right, then left and saw the left, then right main gear lights go green, respectively. Now the nose wheel... positive G? I pushed forward on the stick, then pulled backward- green light nose wheel. Alright! I did all this on my downwind in a hurry, then turned final, landed... and discovered that the non functioning hydraulic system also controlled my brakes! Meep! I hit the landing chute, rolled to within inches of the end of the runway, and finally came to a stop.

Having to spontaneously deal with emergency procedures like this is a real blast and really makes the aircraft come alive. Every aspect of the plane is fun- even the Realistic Battle Damage . ;)

Now, onto some irritating (and hopefully temporary) issues:

The RWR is not currently modeled accurately, which I think may come down to difficulty in finding the obscure technical documents in a foreign language and then having to translate highly technical terms for which their are seldom direct translations.

The main issue with the RWR you'll notice is that you have to map the RWR "search" button onto your HOTAS and frequently switch it on and off. If your RWR has the "search" button lit and something locks your aircraft, you get a single quiet "beep" and it disappears from your RWR! This leaves you completely unaware of the threat unless you happen to hit the "search" button again. If you turn the "search" button off, the RWR then only shows things that are actively radar locking your aircraft and nothing else, lol!

The other issue is the shot pattern of the guns, which is also probably an error caused by the difficulty of having to translate and make sense of technical documents in a foreign language. The only sources anyone here has been able to locate indicate that the guns should have a worst-case shot pattern diameter of "8 mil, 80%," meaning that the worst the guns can shoot is a group where at least 80% of shots fit into an 8 mil diameter circle. If they shoot larger than that, it's time for maintenance. Currently the shot pattern is about 22 mil in diameter. The F-5 (22 mil, should be 8 ), F-15 (22 mil, should be 8 ), and A-10 (17 mil, should be 5 ) all display this issue with gun shot pattern being about 3x larger than any source states.

I have flown the F-5E now for 2 days. Low speed acceleration is very poor but above 300 kias, she scoots quite well. I have never flown a real F-5 so I can't critique other than what I would wish for. I haven't gotten to the RWR yet so take everyone else's word for it. BVR radar is a mystery to me but that's probably because I fly the F-15 almost exclusively. Heaters are fun to play with: just climb up someone's tail pipe and fire away. You do get two chances! :) Bombing, well, it sucks compared to the A-10C. But, as someone else wrote, it's fun to do if you SOP fly. (I guess I am just spoiled by the F-15 and the A-10.)

Flying low through the mountains is an unmatched joy! You can really feel the wind over the wings. Get her up to speed and she's like a hot knife through butter. Her air frame is not only beautiful, but well suited to NOE dashing through the snow. I am like many others out there, I prefer to just fly this little gem. I'm not much into BFM or killing someone. I just like to fly.

I'm not like others in that I find landing and taking off to be very simple. But then, I have lots of experience landing difficult aircraft and I have a great joystick (Thanks, TM for the Warthog!) Yes, I felt the ground effect. I figured it was just more accurate modelling. Like I said, I love to just fly this one!

The engine sounds are, to me, a bit strange during taxi. The engine spool-ups are weird, too, but I figured it was just more accurate modelling. Hard to tell by sound when the afterburner begins but the instruments tell you. Nice.

I can't say how much I like this plane because I love them all. DCS is impossible for me not to like any of the modules. But the F-5 definitely has a personality all her own!

Well after two+ months of having this module, it has really only one vice. High speed ground handling. The gain on NWS is excessively high and , in RW, would be dangerously sensitive. There is a severe bug in that NWS does not center when turned off, and abruptly snaps if there is rudder deflection when NWS is turned ON/OFF. If aircraft is landed without drag-chute, using breaks only, aircraft will excessively weathervamr and spin on the runway, with or without NWS turned on. I suspect that the flight model weight on wheels is faulty, when on the ground. F-5E has been around long enough as module, for BST to fix this. It really is a glaring error in their work.

Just sharing my experience.

AG weapons vice, the delivery is accurate. Sort of. As long as one meets 4 requirements; Proper Manual Deflection setting, proper speed at release, proper altitude at release, proper slant different at release. The freefall bombs will hit close to to target. Rocket and AG guns, is simillary accurate, to a point. But it is nowhere accurate as CCIP and AG Gun pipper in A-10C, SU-25, or SU-25T. Lack of AG radar weapons delivery contributes to lack of precision. Also even for bomb , the release slant distance to target, put the aircraft within effective AAA and lethal SAM/MANPADS . So attacking even moderately defended targets requires good suppression prior to run.

What are user's impressions of F-5E's flight model and systems modeling?

 

Fidelity of flight model?

Reactivity and ruggedness or fragility of systems?

 

Night time and IMC flight and recovery>

 

Are just two Papa Fox-2 + guns, sufficient for DCS A-A?

Are countermeasures effective against SAM1 , IR SAM, IR A-A?

A-G weapons delivery procedures?

 

Is F-5E worth getting?

 

Thank you

My modules: A-10C, KA-50, Mig-21bis, FC3.& UH-1H

Flight model is so good, there is heavy reliance on trimming and fuel management and electricals, which is also good systems modeling. Shes a handful and very challenging in flight and and during fighting.

No I dont think there is system redundancy if you lose a half wing for example, or worse, the elevators, if you compare it to A-10C. you will plop down uncontrollably.

IMC not too much as you only have TACAN which can be good for a fix if you use F-10 and lines method for dead reckoning navigation. No there is no TAD, but kneeboard is there for VFR.

A-A, it was designed to fight on par generation fighters, the most notable of which, is the Mig-21. Its not an air superiority fighter like the F-15C, but it has its tricks and usually its WVR and dogfighting you fight use mostly.

Countermeasures are very low quantity but also an important factor is your visualisation of threat and your response to a launcher. It does have an advanced RWR and I believe in Nevada, somebody created a dedicated and supposedly dynamic, Wild Weasel training campaign.

Very limited A-G role but yes you have dive bombing charts and sleds as well as videos.

It just burns fuel too quickly though imho. I am not surprised at all about that just stating.

The F-5 is cool, slick and challenging.

One thing I noticed is that, you seem to be pulling +4Gs even with slight maneuvers and a lot of the time my G meter's max G is 10+ (out of the scale)

What you are describing sounds like you need to tune your axis curves. Because you're (likely) using a desktop joystick, the throw of the sick is much smaller than your RL counter part. Adjusting your axis curves will result in less erratic input movement at control surface deflection. Considering, your joystick probably has around ~2.5 inches of travel (Radius), that's not much to convert into direct control surface manipulation. Since center is no travel, and~2.5 inches is full control surface deflection, it's not surprising you're having a hard time controlling the finesse of your inputs. Once I tuned mine, it made flying much more realistic and enjoyable.

Just sharing my experience.

AG weapons vice, the delivery is accurate. Sort of. As long as one meets 4 requirements; Proper Manual Deflection setting, proper speed at release, proper altitude at release, proper slant different at release. The freefall bombs will hit close to to target. Rocket and AG guns, is simillary accurate, to a point. But it is nowhere accurate as CCIP and AG Gun pipper in A-10C, SU-25, or SU-25T. Lack of AG radar weapons delivery contributes to lack of precision. Also even for bomb , the release slant distance to target, put the aircraft within effective AAA and lethal SAM/MANPADS . So attacking even moderately defended targets requires good suppression prior to run.

Thanks. Yes, I need much more practice to even figure out how to drop tanks! :) I shall endeavour to get at least ONE hit on a target with an MK-82 and/or MK-82 Snakeye without needing to unload an entire MER in one shot. (The only kill I have ever gotten in a no-holds-barred fuel truck vs F-5 in single player!)

One question (that I probably know the answer to but just asking to be sure): During the festivities in SEA, I noted that the Thuds, Phantoms, and the F-5 dropped napalm. That weapon isn't modelled in DCS, is it? Will it ever be?

What you are describing sounds like you need to tune your axis ....

If you were referring to me, I do use curves. I am not having issues with over sensitivity/control or complaining about it, or at all . I was just mentioning, that to me, it looked like even simple maneuvers were doing +4Gs. Maybe it's just the way it is