Just cannot air-refuel

I have tried this 15+ times but I just can't do it. My op. is to sneek up very slowly from behind and then just fly at a matching speed while trimming the bird, before I call "ready pre-contact". When I get close I make sure to not try and chase the boom, but to fly in relation to the KC-135. I have watched a bunch of great tutorials and I do feel I am using all the tricks in the book but, for the life of me, I just cannot get the A10C stable enough to make contact for more than a few seconds.

Would it help replacing my ageing X52 with something more modern or do I simply suck? :joystick:

Are you using deadzones and curves? Deadzones are usually especially important for aging joysticks.

Curves: yes. But not deadzones. I'll give it a try.

But do you think investing in a Thrustmaster Warthog would make me suck less or should I simply stop blaming the hardware and keep practising?

I set my pitch and yaw axis curves to 30, which gives you very fine control. I too have an x52 pro

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Just keep your hands moving constantly. It takes a lot of practice to really nail down the subtle throttle and stick inputs. Even after years of doing it I am never truly "stable." I can usually refuel in a single connection, but I'm moving slightly up/down, left/right, and forward/back, and my hands are constantly making adjustments accordingly. I also recommend checking your curves and maybe adjusting them. I use the curves from Chucks A-10C guide with a TM Warthog, I would start with that to help reduce the sensitivity near the center.

Curves: yes. But not deadzones. I'll give it a try.

 

But do you think investing in a Thrustmaster Warthog would make me suck less or should I simply stop blaming the hardware and keep practicing?

Set the proper curves and dead zones then keep practicing. If you want to buy a Warthog, make sure you'll get it with nice let say min. 10 cm extension mod then you will feel the difference ;)

what is the tanker speed? if you both are fast you need to lower the speed to 210 knots as any trim at high speeds is imprecise compared to low speed. Yes you fly formation but are you to the sides? I usually place the three windows on my canopy bow above the mirror. When contact is made, I keep peripheral vision on the boom colors. If its yellow and moving onto red I nudge throttles back. If yellow going green I nudge throttles forward. Also helps to trim nose down and hold the stick back for zero pitch. Works wonders with speed changes the one or less knot needed or not.

finally, keep practicing. Its very difficult but very rewarding.

Not sure if you own the av8b module or not, but I've found that getting good with the drogue has helped me get better with the boom. The basket is a little more forgiving allowing you to refine your formation flying abilities without as much frustration from failure with the boom.

I set my pitch and yaw axis curves to 30, which gives you very fine control. I too have an x52 pro

 

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Ouch! Well, increasing the curves to 30 made a heck of a difference. Suddenly I can stay in "contact" for a minute, compared to a few seconds before. Thanks alot! :thumbup:

The TM Warthog definitely helped me with AAR, but it doesn't make it easy. ;)

I've heard so many good things about extensions, one of these days I'm sure I'm going to get one. Until then, a well balanced axis setup might do wonders. I'm using a slight curve on pitch and roll and that works very well for me. Others have been strong proponents for no curve at all, and then I've seen a squad mate go from almost unable to make contact to very stable by applying a fairly strong curve.

If your stick is imprecise and/or spiking, AAR will be hell, and deadzones might help quite a bit.

But in the end, it all comes down to practice, practice, practice.

At some point, it's probably going to "click". All of a sudden, you don't have to be quite as conscious about it. In fact, you'll realize that your fingers start applying the right sort of input before your brain realizes that they should do it. Over time, this gets easier.

But I've never perceived AAR as easy.

I guess the typical phases of learning AAR are something like this:

- Impossible!

- Got close to contact, hooray!

- Impossible! Nuts! No way!

- OMG OMG OMG I had contact for 2 seconds!

- Death grip. Fingers hurt, knuckles all white. Why am I even doing this?

- I give up, it's simply impossible. Everyone who says they can do it is just mocking me. They're all liars.

- Seriously. It's all video editing. Can't be true.

- Holy crap, I did it! I DID IT! 4 contacts before I shot the tanker down, this might actually work after all!

- Nope. Whatever, this is it. I'll never try again. What a waste of time.

- What the...? Got a full load of gas with only 10 contacts. Almost felt easy. Can it be that simple?

- Hahahaha take this, sucked a full load of gas IN ONE CONTACT!

- Okay okay okay, I get disconnected like crazy. But the tank gets filled up, just takes a bit of time.

- I wonder what the fuzz was all about. Now I can even talk on the radio while filling'er up.

- Night. Storm. Gusts. Clouds. Bad visibility. Sweat pouring down the shirt. OMG this is hard. Return of the death grip.

- Multiplayer. 3 guys watching me. Waiting for me to get it done. Deathliest death grip of all times. Aaaaaand... "Transfer complete" OMG this never felt so rewarding!

- Easy peesy, I'm'a pro... WTF? Collided with tanker? I hate AAR! :D

The TM Warthog definitely helped me with AAR, but it doesn't make it easy. ;)

 

I've heard so many good things about extensions, one of these days I'm sure I'm going to get one. Until then, a well balanced axis setup might do wonders. I'm using a slight curve on pitch and roll and that works very well for me. Others have been strong proponents for no curve at all, and then I've seen a squad mate go from almost unable to make contact to very stable by applying a fairly strong curve.

 

If your stick is imprecise and/or spiking, AAR will be hell, and deadzones might help quite a bit.

 

But in the end, it all comes down to practice, practice, practice.

 

At some point, it's probably going to "click". All of a sudden, you don't have to be quite as conscious about it. In fact, you'll realize that your fingers start applying the right sort of input before your brain realizes that they should do it. Over time, this gets easier.

 

But I've never perceived AAR as easy.

 

I guess the typical phases of learning AAR are something like this:

- Impossible!

- Got close to contact, hooray!

- Impossible! Nuts! No way!

- OMG OMG OMG I had contact for 2 seconds!

- Death grip. Fingers hurt, knuckles all white. Why am I even doing this?

- I give up, it's simply impossible. Everyone who says they can do it is just mocking me. They're all liars.

- Seriously. It's all video editing. Can't be true.

- Holy crap, I did it! I DID IT! 4 contacts before I shot the tanker down, this might actually work after all!

- Nope. Whatever, this is it. I'll never try again. What a waste of time.

- What the...? Got a full load of gas with only 10 contacts. Almost felt easy. Can it be that simple?

- Hahahaha take this, sucked a full load of gas IN ONE CONTACT!

- Okay okay okay, I get disconnected like crazy. But the tank gets filled up, just takes a bit of time.

- I wonder what the fuzz was all about. Now I can even talk on the radio while filling'er up.

- Night. Storm. Gusts. Clouds. Bad visibility. Sweat pouring down the shirt. OMG this is hard. Return of the death grip.

- Multiplayer. 3 guys watching me. Waiting for me to get it done. Deathliest death grip of all times. Aaaaaand... "Transfer complete" OMG this never felt so rewarding!

- Easy peesy, I'm'a pro... WTF? Collided with tanker? I hate AAR! :D

This exactly but with WAAYY more shooting down of the tanker!

Two weekends ago I landed myself in serious trouble. I was through the first hour and fifteen minutes of providing support for a player JTAC and had checked out to grab fuel while -2 and -3 covered my position over the target. I had loitered too long and soon found myself chasing the tanker's TACAN with less than 1000 pounds in the tanks. The panic set in when I realized he was 40 miles out, heading away from me, and I only had about 700 pounds left and was burning through fuel quickly.

I went to contact him on the freq I thought he was on, 297.5. No reply. So I tried another common tanker freq for our ops. 312.5. No reply. Pucker factor 7.5.

At this point, I was nearly 35 miles to the nearest airport, Tblisi, and on about 600 pounds. I decided to go for the divert.

I flew towards Tblisi for around 45 seconds until -2 keyed up on freq and said "Try 251, the default frequency." I did just that, and like a robot saint, the AI responded "Proceed to precontact at nine-thousand." A swift 180 set me on course to the tanker. 500 pounds.

TACAN read 30 miles. A few seconds pass. Still 30 miles. Nearly a minute since I turned 180 to him. 28 miles. I realized he was heading away from me.

At this point, I pulled the power back to best endurance speed. I waited for the tanker to complete his racetrack, and has he turned back head-on to me, I gunned the throttles to catch him out of despair. Nearly 300 pounds now.

I eventually merged head on, and swiftly swung my jet behind the tanker and once again, gunned the power to try and catch him. But he was again moving away from me, and at full power I could hardly gain a closure rate that would satisfy my puckered buttcheeks. I refused to look at the fuel indicator as I was pulling closer.

Thankfully, I got up to precontact position and watched the boom come down. I glanced at my fuel indicator. Less than 100 pounds. Pucker factor ∞.

I wasted no time cruising up onto the boom. Now, I will swear up and down that my engines were five seconds from fuel starvation when I got plugged in.

It was one of the most intense moments I've had in DCS. I really, really did not want to embarrass myself and damage my ego in front of my squadmates and our guest JTAC.

I wish I had recorded this. It would totally be a YouTube video if I did.

Learning AAR is essential for Hawg pilots! I recalled this story to demonstrate just how rewarding it is.

If you're having trouble with AAR - don't become discouraged. AAR is what I personally like to call a "reference maneuver." It relies entirely on your ability to fly the aircraft whilst focused on things outside the cockpit entirely. You don't want to be fixated on your instruments or any of that nonsense when flying attached to the boom. You see, AAR is just an example of these overarching "reference maneuvers." The idea is really simple - how well can you maneuver your plane in relation to anything outside the cockpit? The trick is to hone these skills. The best example of these maneuvers is formation flying. Unless you're a lead, most of your time spent flying formation with another aircraft should consist of you staring at the plane you're flying with, creating the ideal formation sight picture.

One of the best ways to hone these skills is just to do a load of formation flying. And not just in nice straight lines, grab a buddy and fly a cross country route will all kinds of turns, climbs, and descents.

Another other way is dogfighting. It might not seem connected, but think about it. Dogfighting will teach you the importance of staring out the cockpit at another plane while maneuvering. Being an old WW2 sim guy (Aces High II), I learned the fastest way to lose a dogfight was to lose sight of my opponent. As a result, you have to learn to keep watch on something outside your cockpit without fail. You'll learn to make rolls, climbs, and whatever else while looking and leaning forwards, left, right, backwards, up, and down and in whatever other direction(s).

There's also Ground Reference Maneuvers. Many real world pilots are familiar with these... S-turns, Turns-about-a-point, etc etc... These are good training as well. Will get you looking out of the cockpit and learning how to fly the plane "by feel." At least, the best you can for a simulator anyway.

To conclude! Sadly, there is no "secret trick" to AAR. It boils down to experience with your aircraft and your ability to maneuver in reference to things outside the pit. There is no substitute for practice! Stick with it, and you'll be topping off in one connect in no time.

Honestly, if you're looking for smooth, the WH isn't the upgrade you are looking for, although (long) extensions can hide it's failings in that regard. I had a short 3" or so extension and it wasn't enough to hide the stiction for me, and I polished and lubed my base 2x.

I eventually stuck my WH grip on top of a VKB base and the difference is quite noticeable, and I no longer use an extension. Also, the VKB can be adjusted with the different cams and springs available (an assortment comes with it) so you can adjust how much center detent and how much return force the stick has. If you have the itch to upgrade, I would strongly suggest considering either it or the Virpil, instead of the WH.

Sure, the WH grip is nice for A-10C, but if you fly other modules then you'd be just as well off with the MCG grip that comes with VKB, or with whatever Virpil has.

I did A2AR with the A10C for the first time about 2 weeks ago. Used to frustrate the hell out of me until i read an important tip which was: fly formation on the tanker not the boom!! Once i did that I started to 'look through' the boom and just focus on the tanker...its quite difficult at first but you get the hang of it. also (I have a Saitek X55 HOTAS), I fly with my thumb and first 2 fingers which gives me maximum sensitivity on the joystick - gripping it with my hand isn't that good. Oh and don't forget to hit NWS to reset refueling (took me a while to figure it out! lol). When you do latch on and get the 'taking fuel' message...its awesome..but you can't relax.

I’ve got an old X-52, it’s not the equipment, it’s the user.

Small movements, potentially lots of them. Trim trim trim, and work that throttle. I find the throttle moves more than anything else. When you make a move to reduce throttle, put 1/2 of it back in. When you add throttle, take 1/2 of it back out. This helps you arrest momentum shifts, and then set a new throttle position.

And if you can get VR, do it. Amazing how much easier it is in VR, as the small shifts in motion are sensed rather than seen.

With the KC-135 I focus on the wing box, and keeping it in the same relative position.

I've heard so many good things about extensions, one of these days I'm sure I'm going to get one.

It's more than super easy to make one for yourself. Other options are:

http://mfg.simundza.com/blog/new-product-mfg-warthog-extensions/

https://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com/ - here the price is just ridiculous (after all it's just a metal pipe with ps2-ish male to female adapter :D

http://www.simpit.co.nz/index.php/features-2/projection-display-solutions-2/thrustmaster-extension - ridiculous pricing here as well.

S! =Pedro=

Also, the VKB can be adjusted with the different cams and springs available (an assortment comes with it) so you can adjust how much center detent and how much return force the stick has.

TM Warthog can be also adjusted by different springs etc.

#1 thing to sort out imo is tanker speed. All aircraft have a guideline for speed while refueling. Unfortunately, the mission editor is limited to TAS, so have fun doing the math to get a proper IAS, which at least for me, is what I use to measure whether or not I'm flying above stall speed.

Going too slow? Propwash will push you around, small changes in speed/pitch will have you plummeting like a brick underneath the tanker.

While I am no master at AAR, getting the speed right (and some curves) helped me get my first successful fill up where I spent hours getting frustrated beforehand.

1. Easy rule of thumb: +2% for each 1000ft. E.g. 250kias at 10000ft = 300ktas

 

2. You mean downwash I guess ;)

2. more than likely...what can i say I'm not a pilot :P terminology sometimes evades me. whatever you call it, it's much easier to handle when you're not riding on the edge of stall speed.

Am I going crazy? Didn't DCS tankers change speed based on receiver type dynamically? It should be possible to have tankers fly at their best endurance speed most the time and then shift to the contact speed based on receiver type when asked.

Am I going crazy? Didn't DCS tankers change speed based on receiver type dynamically? It should be possible to have tankers fly at their best endurance speed most the time and then shift to the contact speed based on receiver type when asked.

I don't think it works that way in DCS.

Try a curve on your thrust axis, just like one you'd apply to your pitch, roll, or yaw.

It essentially gives you a zone of reduced throttle response - ideal when you're hunting for a particular speed.

Try a curve on your thrust axis, just like one you'd apply to your pitch, roll, or yaw.

 

It essentially gives you a zone of reduced throttle response - ideal when you're hunting for a particular speed.

I'm guessing you don't mean an "S" curve though, right?

Just a bit of an exponential curve? How much?

Try a curve on your thrust axis, just like one you'd apply to your pitch, roll, or yaw.

 

It essentially gives you a zone of reduced throttle response - ideal when you're hunting for a particular speed.

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Wouldn't that zone of reduced throttle be only for a particular speed range though?

 

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Yes, the range you use for refuelling :)

I'm guessing you don't mean an "S" curve though, right?

 

Just a bit of an exponential curve? How much?

I use an S curve at 45 (in the DCS axis tuner), works fine. It also helps if your throttle's a touch sticky.