Possible to get 'in range' with air-to-ground gun without going below 'pull up cue'?

I must be doing something really wrong with air-to-ground gun targeting. In CCIP, I cannot get the 'in range' indicator to appear without the velocity vector being below the 'pull up cue'.

I tend to use a 20-25 degree dive.

Any help appreciated!

A: Go Fast, it was counter intuitive to me at first. But the faster you are going the shallower the... drop angle... is. Not sure what to call it, but I think you'll get the idea.

B: Probably dive a little shallower. I'm not sure what or if there is a proper dive angle, but that seems a little steep to me.

C: It's work in progress. I think Wags said in here somewhere that they were re-working the pull up queue logic.

Thanks for that. I think in Wags' YT video on this he has a dive of around 35 degrees, but I seem to recall that he also gets the 'pull up cue', so maybe it is something that needs rethinking.

35 deg is way too steep. come in more shallow.

35 deg is way too steep. come in more shallow.

I was saying that Wags does 35 degrees in his tutorial video on YT. I usually try with 20-25 as I said in the original post.

I was saying that Wags does 35 degrees in his tutorial video on YT. I usually try with 20-25 as I said in the original post.

apologies, 20-25 shouldnt be too bad. I do that and never get the break X when guns are in CCIP. What altitude are you rolling in at?

For an F-15E strafe, the numbers are base altitude 7500ft, base roll in range 3nm (all assuming perpendicular flight path to target at roll in), open range 6000ft slant range, cease 4500ft slant range, abort when you don't have active ranging by 2100' altitude. 450+/-30 knots at open fire range. These numbers might help you, but won't be exact because F-15 has a 2 degree upcant on the gun. The 7500ft altitude and 3nm are numbers for a practice strafe pattern, but realize you can make these up on the go using TPOD lookdown angle, canopy code for 25 degrees down, or math. Basically every mile away equates to 2500ft of altitude for a 25 degree wire, so if you're 6 miles away you want to roll in from 15k ft. Speed should be a higher priority for crosscheck, if you're high altitude you want to be slower at roll in and at idle until you realize you need the extra speed because it's way easier to gain speed at 25deg nose low than lose it.

Since the 22mils spread make the gun very ineffective even at the range you'll get that IN RANGE cue at where I always have passed the pull up cue and having the break X already literally for ages, I just started ignoring those cues altogether. Instead, I try to take a good approach at the target, bein aware of the terrain just before getting there. In a plane that shoots lots of degreed above it's TVV it's a bad idea to attack something that's just popping up behind a treetop. Try to attack from an open side and if possible also try to extend to an open side as well. Then I usually come in at a 10° dive angle, placing my TVV on the target I'm going for, hauling M 0.8+ without AB. As soon, as the "clock" starts running down, I push forward to get the pipper on target until it's down to 6 o'clock, this is where the IN RANGE cue appears. Also, as soon as that happens, the pipper will move up without stick input a bit due to the CCIP calculations. Don't correct that, it will come back down soon enough. As soon, as it comes down over the target, squeeze the trigger very shortly... some 20-30 rounds go off and that's enough to get a good shack. That roughly happens at ~2:30 - 4:00 on the "range clock". At 2:30, Betty calls for a pull up. That's the absolutely latest chance to do the trigger and break away safely. Once the gun spread's been corrected (has been reported already), it's probably easy enough just to fire as soon as the IN RANGE cue comes up. This technique might get harder in valleys though, my training sessions have been in open places so far. The shallow angle is especially for being able to go in really close and pull up late to minimize the ammo usage... shooting at 6 o'clock already usually means wasting like 200 rounds to get a truck killed at the moment, that's not fine for me

... lots of moving parts here. Google "Z diagrams" .

In short, a typical run should be:

roll in around 8,000 agl around 2.2 miles from target,

around 30* dive angle, 5* VV offset above target, 450kts on the wire,

3,000 pickle altitude.

safe escape. 7.5gs off target pull.

stepper / faster is always better than shallower / slower.

again, lots of moving parts and math in this, but just about all free fall ordinance can be delivered this way.

One of our guys made a vid of this. The numbers are not real world, but they are adapted for the game .

Hope that helps :)

Guys, thanks a lot for all your replies. All good advice. However, it's not really what I was asking. I don't have an issue - well not much! - with getting hits with the gun, I was wondering if anyone is able to do it with 'in range' showing and 'pull up cue' NOT showing, specifically on the Hornet.

I usually am at 7500ft, then do a 25 degree dive at around 3 mile from target. However, I have tried different variations in the Hornet, but can't get the 'in range' and no 'pull up cue' combination at all.

Just wondering if this is something that needs adjusting in the Hornet as was suggested earlier.

No there is a difference between DCS parameters and real life parameters.

Here the precize moment when the pilot press the gun trigger :

[ATTACH]204156[/ATTACH]

He's between 15° and 20° of dive angle at 460knots 3600feet baro alt. His Piper is at 50%/180° IN RNG, and he is still above safe parameters.

Here from DCS hornet :

[ATTACH]204157[/ATTACH]

I'm at the same dive angle and speed, my Ppier is at 75%/270° not IN RNG and I'm still below safe parameters.

So I think I can say there is a difference between RL footage and DCS regarding hornet C gunpass. My guess is that it is related to "Scale" in DCS that conduct to conflict between [dive angle/IN RNG point] and the corresponding radar altitude that is different between DCS and RL.

(?)

... lots of moving parts here. Google "Z diagrams" .

 

In short, a typical run should be:

roll in around 8,000 agl around 2.2 miles from target,

 

around 30* dive angle, 5* VV offset above target, 450kts on the wire,

3,000 pickle altitude.

 

you can't event see targets at 3000'

... lots of moving parts here. Google "Z diagrams" .

 

In short, a typical run should be:

roll in around 8,000 agl around 2.2 miles from target,

 

around 30* dive angle, 5* VV offset above target, 450kts on the wire,

3,000 pickle altitude.

 

safe escape. 7.5gs off target pull.

 

 

stepper / faster is always better than shallower / slower.

 

 

again, lots of moving parts and math in this, but just about all free fall ordinance can be delivered this way.

 

One of our guys made a vid of this. The numbers are not real world, but they are adapted for the game .

 

 

 

Hope that helps :)

Not that I'm the most knowledgeable guy in Air-to-Ground matters, but doesn't a stepper angle increases the likelihood of a ground collision ?

Not that I'm the most knowledgeable guy in Air-to-Ground matters, but doesn't a stepper angle increases the likelihood of a ground collision ?

yes :)

just pull early and hard enough.

Gun bullet trajectory is better, more straight, the steeper you shoot, with the above drawback.

Guys, thanks a lot for all your replies. All good advice. However, it's not really what I was asking. I don't have an issue - well not much! - with getting hits with the gun, I was wondering if anyone is able to do it with 'in range' showing and 'pull up cue' NOT showing, specifically on the Hornet.

I usually am at 7500ft, then do a 25 degree dive at around 3 mile from target. However, I have tried different variations in the Hornet, but can't get the 'in range' and no 'pull up cue' combination at all.

Just wondering if this is something that needs adjusting in the Hornet as was suggested earlier.

I'm not sure but I think you can set the pull up cue in the hornet. Don't know how to do it but I'm sure someone here does lol

you can't event see targets at 3000'

Not that I'm the most knowledgeable guy in Air-to-Ground matters, but doesn't a stepper angle increases the likelihood of a ground collision ?

1) don't know what to tell ya (shrug). It is a function of doing some of that "pilots shiz", work "big to small". Just because you cant see the target at 8k prior to the roll in, doesn't mean you don't have an idea of where it is and can roll in on its general locations. Once rolled in you acquire the actual target in the dive.

I have no problem finding targets at 7k in the dive if not at 8k. (shrug)

Steeper and/or faster is something the computer can deal with, slower and/or lower wont give the bomb enough energy on delivery and will give you the dive X prior to a solution.

2) No issue for the safe escape if you pickle at 3k and immediately pull up after delivery.

... we have vids for proper deliveries. Be happy to demo for ya. Catch us in discord. :)

He's concerned about gun strafing, not bombs Lex.

He's concerned about gun strafing, not bombs Lex.

ah.

So much for gaining context on a phone screen.

Found in the video description:

This should be available in the 13 February 2019 Open Beta update.

Looks as if some changes have been made that we don't have yet

Found in the video description:

 

 

 

Looks as if some changes have been made that we don't have yet

Well spotted! I missed that. Could be our answer then. Roll on next week!

Wags makes it look real easy.

I was wondering though, since jetpilots also have IR/GPS/LSR guided weapons, how often does a pilot use CCIP/dive bombing?

Seems dangerous because of the dive towards the target and not as effective as guided weapons.

Wags makes it look real easy.

He does, but he's demonstrating a fix that will hopefully appear on Wednesday.

He does, but he's demonstrating a fix that will hopefully appear on Wednesday.

Explains a few things. Thank you.

Wags makes it look real easy.

 

 

I was wondering though, since jetpilots also have IR/GPS/LSR guided weapons, how often does a pilot use CCIP/dive bombing?

 

 

Seems dangerous because of the dive towards the target and not as effective as guided weapons.

In a permissive environment (i.e. no or very limited air and ground threats), CCIPing dumb ammo can still be effective. With a tight system you could get reasonable accuracy during visual deliveries. The taxpayers like to see good use of their money and when a good ole Mk82 can do the job, you save them a lot compared to using a GBU-12 or -38.