Even with the Spitfire, the bf-109 and the fw-190 will keep making the law in the sky

In a good hands Zero could survive a combat with more than a dozen of Hellcats.

I think you mean Wildcat not Hellcat.

I would suggest to everyone who thinks that one or two pages from Clostermann's book is a %100 reliable account of what actually happened to 2 TAF's Spitfires, that they read far more widely and from far more objective sources, such as Shores and Thomas' excellent four part series on 2 TAF, or Don Caldwell's JG 26 diaries.

I think you mean Wildcat not Hellcat.

Nope.

On 24 June 1944, Saburo Sakai approached a formation of 15 U.S. Navy Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters which he mistakenly assumed were friendly Japanese aircraft. William A. McCormick saw four Hellcats on the Zero's tail but decided not to get involved. Sakai demonstrated his skill and experience. Despite his loss of one eye and facing superior in number in performance enemy aircraft, Sakai eluded attacks by the Hellcats over Iwo Jima. This event was seen by ground crews and soldiers on island.

Keep in mind, Sakai was exceptional. I don't think that would be normal for most Zero pilots, or anyone for that matter.

This is the same Sakai that took a 50 BMG slug to the head and lived, right? I saw an interview with him. Classy as they come.

(re: Message #1)

I'm not worried.

Depends on who(m) I am flying against.

In real life, you cartoon combat aces probably would not last 30 seconds in a real metal to metal dogfight against a real ace.

Question is, how do real aces compare to fighting against cartoon aces?

The WWII MP servers usually have just a handful of guys playing, ever, anytime EXCEPT when a new plane release comes out for a couple weeks. Then, afterwards, everything goes back to normal and just a few dedicated WWII guys are around in MP.

I have all the DCS WWII birds. And DCS has the best WWII cartoon fighter aircraft, anywhere!

But I prefer my copters in MP.

The F6F was not kind to zeros.

Yes Closterman has been credited for 33 victories by the French Air Force (FAF counts shared kills as full kills), the RAF credits him for 23 victories. Closterman personal claims are only those attributed to him from the RAF, he repeated it several times in aviations papers all along his life.

 

The big show is no Sci Fi, no pilot who fly with him ever invalidated what he wrote. Closterman has always been humble and discribed himself as a lucky pilot fighting against aces.

But he was more than a competent pilot, he was clever, as an engineer he had a solid understanding in his aircraft and was experienced as an aerobatic pilot even before the war.

 

Calling him a liar his plain defamation. The keyboard warrior who produces such an insult should better look himself in the mirror and consider trying to be more like Pierre Closterman than what he himself actually is.

Merci Baloo

Well, after my first engagement yesterday in the Spitfire against the 109 I have to say it's pretty cool, miles away better than the P51 for dogfight ! The engine power isn't has good as the diving speed, however the Spitfire turn very nicely and the canons are really what we needed to fight the germans fighters.

Concerning what P.Closterman said about the Spit IX, I think it's pretty true considering the RAF wasn't using anymore the IX against the last gen Luftwaffe aircraft knowing they couldn't match them, that's why last gen Spitfire and Tempest V exist !

:huh:

Concerning what P.Closterman said about the Spit IX, I think it's pretty true considering the RAF wasn't using anymore the IX against the last gen Luftwaffe aircraft knowing they couldn't match them, that's why last gen Spitfire and Tempest V exist !

Clostermann's undocumented personal opinions (does Clostermann provide any documentation anywhere in his book to support his claims?) notwithstanding, 2 TAF's Spitfire IXs and XVIs were just as willing and able to mix it with Luftwaffe fighters of all types through until VE-Day: for example, 1 1/2, possibly 2, Me 262s were shot down by Spitfire IX/XVIs on 25 December 1944 (from Shores and Thomas, 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2):

Then there's the example of the French Canadian pilot, Flt Lt Richard Audet of 411(Canadian) Sqn. who shot down 5 German fighters in one sortie on 29 December 1944, followed by five more in January and an Me 262 on January 23...

Besides, what happened in real life between 2 TAF and the Luftwaffe 73-74 years ago bears little resemblance to us flight simmers sitting in comfy computer chairs, manipulating computer graphics while munching on chips and Tim Tams (as enjoyable as such activities are). :music_walkman::joystick:

Thanks for your post Friedrich-4/B !

Nope.

On 24 June 1944, Saburo Sakai approached a formation of 15 U.S. Navy Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters which he mistakenly assumed were friendly Japanese aircraft. William A. McCormick saw four Hellcats on the Zero's tail but decided not to get involved. Sakai demonstrated his skill and experience. Despite his loss of one eye and facing superior in number in performance enemy aircraft, Sakai eluded attacks by the Hellcats over Iwo Jima. This event was seen by ground crews and soldiers on island.

By that logic the P40 is better than the Zero as "LT Philip Adair challenged 64 Japanese enemy aircraft"

You funded overbuffed K4 and D9 which are not representative of the real air combat 8/10 of cases. Some g14 (maybe even without mw50) and a8 would be more appropriate for realism.

By that logic the P40 is better than the Zero as "LT Philip Adair challenged 64 Japanese enemy aircraft"

Could survive != better

It wasnt said that the Zero was the better plane.

By that logic the P40 is better than the Zero as "LT Philip Adair challenged 64 Japanese enemy aircraft"

Reading and understanding comprehensions should be part of education this days ...

Original point made by Theskyline35 was that in a Mustang one stands no chance against good 109 or 190 pilot, to which I responded that in a good hands a Zero can SURVIVE a dogfight which seems impossible (a dozen or more enemy aircraft). At no point I made a statement that based on such criteria I think Zero is better than Hellcat.

Sidenote in regard to that situation. Lt Phillip R. Adair situation was vastly different, he wasnt one jumped by, he jumped enemy formation from altitude advantage, having speed against Ki-43's of 33rd, 50th and 204th Sentai (escorting a group of 24 Ki-48s from 8th and 34th Sentai). He was not spotted until he began his second approach and even then there was little slower Oscars could do against P-40N with sufficient altitude advantage. The moment his energy (and luck) ended he was hit by 12.7 mm rounds and his machine badly damaged he decided to dive away, all the way to the ground. He was damn brave for sure but he also worked out a good tactical position for himself and his attack caused a big disruption in Japanese formation, allowing following P-40s, A-36s and P-51As from 311th Fighter-Bomber Group to carry their attacks. Even with this advantages however Allies suffered losses. So thats not exactly comparable to a lone and slower fighter getting into furball with technically superior machines.

So getting back to origins of discussion. I dont think any Mustang pilot stands against impossible odds when he faces a 190 or a 109 flown by a better pilot (of which he of course is not even aware), a lot depends on tactical situation, positioning or even time spent in the air by both pilots. There were aces getting shot down in their superior machines throughout the war you know.

Reading and understanding comprehensions should be part of education this days ...

You are right, I thought you were implying the Zero was better. I misunderstood.:thumbup:

My pleasure, always at your service !

no,...CombatWombat....

" " little wiggle things mean QUOTE

When the Spitfire IX was announced, I was scratching my head also. With the 190D-9 & 109K-4, I would have thought a Spitfire XIV would have been a better choice, as the IX is definitely at a disadvantage against the two German planes.

Although by that time of the war, maybe the allied pilot skill level made up for the lack of plane advantage.

I know the AI controlled Spitfire isn't a fair representation. But just for kicks I'd like everyone to try and beat the Spit AI with a D-9. I've probably done 20 engagements against it so far, and I've been shot down every time. It doesn't matter if I have a massive height and energy advantage. In less than a minute the AI Spitfire is glued on my six and closing. Seconds later I'm in pieces. Every time! :joystick:

So far all I've seen are Spitfire vs Bf 109K-4 videos.

How does the D-9 fare against the Spit online? Anyone? :)

I personally was more looking forward to Spitfire XVI, my favorite of late Merlin-engine Spitfires.

I fought against 190s yesterday as well as 109s on BS server, 190s that dogfight are usually dead 190s. One that utilize their speed and energy are almost untouchable, speed difference between Spitfire and 190, particularly at low altitudes is massive in my opinion.

Still its a bit to early to call for conclusions, most of the people are learning and trying their new machine and before there will be enough experience gathered it will take some time :)

One that utilize their speed and energy are almost untouchable, speed difference between Spitfire and 190, particularly at low altitudes is massive in my opinion.

This is good to know. :) This does not seem to be the case against the Spitfire AI. :notify:

I do agree that it is odd that the allies are getting the most common aircraft and the axis the rare ones...

Ho hum. Deja Vu.

I know the AI controlled Spitfire isn't a fair representation. But just for kicks I'd like everyone to try and beat the Spit AI with a D-9. I've probably done 20 engagements against it so far, and I've been shot down every time. It doesn't matter if I have a massive height and energy advantage. In less than a minute the AI Spitfire is glued on my six and closing. Seconds later I'm in pieces. Every time! :joystick:

 

So far all I've seen are Spitfire vs Bf 109K-4 videos.

 

How does the D-9 fare against the Spit online? Anyone? :)

What altitudes are you engaging the Spitfire at?

Certainly from where the A.I is concerned (by that I mean flying the Spitfire against A.I) the Spitfire is capable of gaining the advantage over the 109 at any skill level and at any altitude that I have tried.

What altitudes are you engaging the Spitfire at?

Sea level. 2000 meters. And me at 4000 and 5000 meters with AI @ 2000 meters. It really makes no difference.

By that logic the P40 is better than the Zero as "LT Philip Adair challenged 64 Japanese enemy aircraft"

Not really. Saburo Sakai has a reputation as an amazing pilot. I'd chalk this story up more to his skill than the plane he was in, although I'm sure the Zero's agility didn't hurt.