Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing - Page 20 - ED Forums
 


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Old 03-05-2018, 02:34 AM   #191
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Thanks David OC, looks like I should gather all the useful info you guys posted to OP.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:55 AM   #192
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It would also be great if the F18 pilots here could talk more about their different training experience.

Quote

"Naval aviation revolves around flying at the boat. It is imperative that the procedures used at the boat become second nature, that they become ingrained in muscle memory. To this effect, all shore based VFR approaches will be flown in exactly the same manner as would be at the carrier, with a few minor exceptions:"
Link to source

Like I said in my last post, it's to keep the training up for landing on the boat, it's why they are so passionate about how this is trained and executed for the boat.

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Old 03-05-2018, 03:42 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
Shore-Based-Procedures



Flared minimum descent
That is just mentioning if you do one, not that you will do one every time. Pretty difficult to flare and land with a center ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
It would also be great if the F18 pilots here could talk more about their different training experience.

Quote

"Naval aviation revolves around flying at the boat. It is imperative that the procedures used at the boat become second nature, that they become ingrained in muscle memory. To this effect, all shore based VFR approaches will be flown in exactly the same manner as would be at the carrier, with a few minor exceptions:"
Link to source

Like I said in my last post, it's to keep the training up for landing on the boat, it's why they are so passionate about how this is trained and executed for the boat.

.
What about it? It's basically the same, you fly at home like you fly at the boat. The pattern is the same (minus the approach to the angled deck), and you fly the ball to touchdown.

Last edited by ttaylor0024; 03-05-2018 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:56 PM   #194
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Just generally trying to help others get up to speed here and in the Groove , in the techniques and Methodology for "Naval Aviators"

Many are mixing in general aviation techniques, take the good intentions of the 2nd post in this very thread, it was referencing this article.

I'm pointing out that the OP is referencing "NATOPS manual" in the first post, that is a very specific training and Methodology for landing the F18 on the carrier correctly "safely, constantly"

Also how F18 pilots generally do not use the Auto throttle technique, as it is totally opposite to what you have even been preaching about here right? But it is still a technique that can be used to land the jet on a carrier.

They also train the same way when at a shore base to keep this technique fresh, the base from what I've read also have I/FLOLS installed, and the ball is flown during normal VFR approaches to the field.

What many need to remember is the F18 is a Ferrari of the sky, with almost zero spool time and "plenty......" of power, this enables the F18 and you to easily hold AOA all the way down the GS for landing on the boat just using the throttle for adjustment, there is no need at all to pitch for speed etc.

It's all good ttaylor0024, I'm just pointing out that this thread topic is specifically how US Naval Aviators" are trained, not necessarily the Methodology of how Australia, Canada, Finland, Spain, Switzerland etc, are trained to fly and land the F18 on land based runways, as IvanK has pointed out here.


It's all good, we all here like to learn about this from the pro's


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Old 03-05-2018, 11:36 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
Just generally trying to help others get up to speed here and in the Groove , in the techniques and Methodology for "Naval Aviators"

Many are mixing in general aviation techniques, take the good intentions of the 2nd post in this very thread, it was referencing this article.

I'm pointing out that the OP is referencing "NATOPS manual" in the first post, that is a very specific training and Methodology for landing the F18 on the carrier correctly "safely, constantly"

Also how F18 pilots generally do not use the Auto throttle technique, as it is totally opposite to what you have even been preaching about here right? But it is still a technique that can be used to land the jet on a carrier.

They also train the same way when at a shore base to keep this technique fresh, the base from what I've read also have I/FLOLS installed, and the ball is flown during normal VFR approaches to the field.

What many need to remember is the F18 is a Ferrari of the sky, with almost zero spool time and "plenty......" of power, this enables the F18 and you to easily hold AOA all the way down the GS for landing on the boat just using the throttle for adjustment, there is no need at all to pitch for speed etc.

It's all good ttaylor0024, I'm just pointing out that this thread topic is specifically how US Naval Aviators" are trained, not necessarily the Methodology of how Australia, Canada, Finland, Spain, Switzerland etc, are trained to fly and land the F18 on land based runways, as IvanK has pointed out here.


It's all good, we all here like to learn about this from the pro's


.
Yeah I'm not trying to sound like a dick or anything, just tone is hard to translate over words on forums.

Yes there are different ways to land the hornet, however seeing as most (if not all) will be attempting carrier landings in the bird, may as well have them learn the correct way from the start. Over the course of 100 years of trial and error now a very good system has been constructed through mishaps along the way, which is the reason we practice ball flying so much. It's not easy in the beginning but it's imperative we learn it a certain way and keep current so it's something we don't have to worry (as much) about at the end of a long day, because in the end, while the navy pilot does take off and land from the boat, the real mission is putting warheads on foreheads carrying out the mission, navigation/takeoff/landing is all expected and a secondary part of the job.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:22 AM   #196
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I'm looking forward to the hornet and do want to learn and train the right way for the carrier, I believe most here do as well, it's going to be loads of fun and frustration learning and doing laps around the boat, Cannot wait!!

Here is a great carrier pattern video and write up by neofightr, giving feedback/corrections about the video, I'm very interested to learn how to do this pattern correctly for carrier operations.

Also looking forward to the differences in landing with the F14 on the carrier, this will be even more difficult to do correctly apparently, as the engines take long to spool up etc.

It will also be great when Heatblur Simulations / ED get the boat to be alive, as seen in these early WIP shots of the crew.

F-14 Pilot Testing Session

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylor0024 View Post
the real mission is putting warheads on foreheads carrying out the mission, navigation/takeoff/landing is all expected and a secondary part of the job.
That part we are all experts at here, nothing like overloading the A10 with Maverick's or CBU's and trying to take out a tank company by ourselves, including all the anti air


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Last edited by David OC; 03-06-2018 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:01 PM   #197
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Hey Everyone,

I stand corrected. A gnarly and highly capable F/A-18 Hornet pilot, from the carrier break video on page 17 of this thread, responded to my question on his video that this is how he lands his Hornet on the carrier:

"Throttle for angle of descent. Stick for airspeed."

I think we can put this thread to rest now finally! Sorry for the contention and argumentation that I caused and I will make sure to practice doing this the correct way from now on.

Thank you!
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:09 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xgibbousx View Post
Hey Everyone,

I stand corrected. A gnarly and highly capable F/A-18 Hornet pilot, from the carrier break video on page 17 of this thread, responded to my question on his video that this is how he lands his Hornet on the carrier:

"Throttle for angle of descent. Stick for airspeed."

I think we can put this thread to rest now finally! Sorry for the contention and argumentation that I caused and I will make sure to practice doing this the correct way from now on.

Thank you!
There's no argument here xgibbousx, everyone's learning

These guy's here are trying to help us learn the correct way for carrier operations.

This is incorrect tho for carrier operations as discussed xgibbousx, Well the last part if you want to get technical "Stick for airspeed" No need to worry about that in the "powerhouse" F18. See F18 high alpha pass...

Note: Possibly correct terminology: See at bottom (on speed) AOA conclusion, possible reason for some confusion here.

All the naval aviators here are preaching this methodology below for naval aviation, this is practiced even when a shore, flying from land based airports to keep the technique fresh for the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neofightr View Post

If you are using the stick and throttle to maintain glideslope you are doing it wrong, period regardless of platform. The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA. That is what the pilots are doing in the videos when moving the stick, they are trying to keep that green donut lit and rock steady on the AOA indicator while using the throttle to maintain glideslope by keeping the meatball lined up with the datum lights. That's how it works, period.
Here's why:

Hook to ramp angle is very important when landing, this is the main reason I see the aircraft is flown this specific way above, you cannot quickly keep adjusting the "angle of the aircraft" or more to the point, you don't want to be changing this angle to deck and try and recover the exact angle "last second" when landing. As neofightr and others have has said before this leads to hook slaps, bolters etc. In other words the angle is wrong for the hook to pickup the cable correctly as designed.

The whole idea with the recovery patterns, as show in Wags video is to come out in the groove ready to fly the ball and land. very very close to on speed, on AOA, on glide slope (No huge flight corrections).

Once into the groove you call the ball (15-18 seconds to touchdown). You Keep "Hold" the Exact AOA and use the throttles to keep the ball in the center all the way down to landing.

Pitch to hold" constant AOA"
Roll to align with carrier, offset to right "crotch" runway is 10 deg to the left and moving at 30 kts.
Power to hold GS (Glide slope) this is following the (Ball), the orange circle in the picture below, keep this in the center using the throttles.



Hope this helps.

Here is a picture of a field IFLOLS for practicing this aircraft patten and landing method when land based.



Light showing low here.

The Landing Signal Officer (LSO) would be on the radio calling Power, Power, Power to get you back on the glide slope, you don't change the pitch AOA to get back on GS. just use the throttle. You hold this profile and basically control cash into the runway, no flaring, this is what the F18 landing gear was redesigned to take.

SIDE NOTE:

It is interesting as to why the same terminology is used here groove,

"controlling speed with the stick and rate of descent with the throttle" to me, this makes it more confusing?

Well the "controlling speed with the stick" part is.

If your holding the correct "AOA" airspeed is pegged with the optimum AOA, is this just a very strange way to say?

As seen in this image below. "On speed" = correct "AOA" would be a better way to say and explain this perhaps....





Perhaps one of the navy pilots here can explain why they are using this terminology?


So this terminology below.

"Throttle for angle of descent. Stick for airspeed" or "controlling speed with the stick and rate of descent with the throttle"

Are correct...

If you have been taught and fully understand how they should be interpreted, going off the AOA indexer for the F18.

Throttle for angle of descent (GS)
Stick for airspeed (Using AOA indexer) = Correct "On Speed" and "AOA" for landing on carrier

So, even the article posted in the 2nd post is correct (Method 1, Pitch For Airspeed, Power For Glideslope) The big thing that is missing on GA aircraft is the connection between speed and AOA, using the AOA indexer. GA aircraft don't even have an AOA indexer as standard equipment, the F18 does and is a vital part to the F18, for the pilot to have correct angle to deck, when coming down the GS for landing.

Great example of keeping a steady on speed AOA (Field Carrier training)




Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System FLOLS demonstration



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Last edited by David OC; 03-09-2018 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:37 PM   #199
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@David OC ...yes, that ''pitch/stick for airspeed'' was tripping me up as well. And as you stated, the misconception that you would control your airspeed via the stick comes probably from not completely understanding what the AoA indexer lights left of the HUD really indicate and are supposed to tell the pilot. At least i am still not entirely sure about it myself

So; i was not sure whether those changing indexer lights (donut) where indicating ''angle of attack'' or whether they were about the correct true airspeed that the aircraft should fly down the GS and eventually touch down at.

Now, if i am not mistaken: the AoA indexer lights really simply measure/indicate only AoA, but AoA is of course the COMBINATION of correct approach angle of the airfoils (as in degrees to the horizon) AND a specific true airspeed for a specific aircraft. Now, if i am not completely off in my physics here, AoA changes with different true airspeeds at the same angle of the airfoils in relation to the horizon and vice versa. If i keep that angle of the airfoils to the horizon rock steady but increase true airspeed, AoA decreases for instance. If i decrease true airspeed and start to descend the airflow comes not straight and level anymore, but comes from foward below thus inceasing AoA.

Thus i would actually conclude that neofighter is correct in stating that you pretty much use the stick for alignment and keeping the correct angle of your ''hook'' towards the flight deck/wires. And you would establish that correct angle early on and fly that till you touch down. GS control and true airspeed control would then soley happen via the throttle. Besides, it makes the apporach procedure somewhat easier i think, because you simply can put you main focus on one control input.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:03 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc_neo View Post
Now, if i am not mistaken: the AoA indexer lights really simply measure/indicate only AoA, but AoA is of course the COMBINATION of correct approach angle of the airfoils (as in degrees to the horizon) AND a specific true airspeed for a specific aircraft.
Just a small correction: that would be an angle of attitude. Angle of attack is entirely separate from the aircraft's attitude relative to the horizon; it's purely a measure of the angle between the aircraft (wing) and the relative wind.

(for instance, one could theoretically hold a constant AoA while doing a barrel roll).

Cheers to everyone in this thread! Lots of great discussion and information here! Thank you all.
I can't wait to try it out in the Hornet, though I have a feeling my carrier pattern will take a LOT of work to get right.

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