Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing - Page 26 - ED Forums
 


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Old 03-12-2018, 09:42 PM   #251
David OC
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Originally Posted by Vitormouraa View Post
Maybe you misunderstood what I said but I have no problem landing the Hawg with near to or zero visibility. It's quite easy once you understand how everything works. But I've never been a fan of doing perfect patterns and all that stuff when landing so that's why I said that although IFR has been one of my priorities since I started learning the module. I just don't have patience to do the patterns used in real life.
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I find quite impossible to keep my A-10C aligned with the yellow bars on the ADI using just throttle though, I need to pitch up and pitch down a bit, but just a bit, using the trim. But the altitude is mainly controlled by the throttle.
The reason for the response is for you to try it without....

"I need to pitch up and pitch down a bit, but just a bit"

Are you pitching up for height, back on GS here or chasing the on speed AOA? if (on speed) AOA, this will lower your sink rate more and you will need to add much more power to hold (on speed) AOA.

Give it a go without doing that and you will see it pitch up itself (lowing the descent rate) when adding throttle and still stay on speed AOA (Green Doughnut)

Watch the A10 video, no pitch at all (I show the control gauge), on speed AOA (Green Doughnut) all the way down.

.
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:58 PM   #252
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Yep I do need to improve that. But it definitely needs a better approach to the runway. Otherwise I will have to use the stick due to the changes I need to do, which are considerably high due to the poor approach! So a nice approach will give you less work to do once you are aligning with the runway I believe.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:21 AM   #253
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This is a good read about installing on speed AOA indexer in GA aircraft and having the appropriate training, for safety reasons.

"Airplane owners should consider installing an AOA indicator, which, coupled with pilot understanding and training on how to best use it, can enhance situational awareness during critical or high-workload phases of flight. FAA, aviation advocacy groups, type clubs, and manufacturers, including kit manufacturers, should create and maintain educational initiatives that include general principals, best practices, and operational specifics as they relate to loss of control."

www.ntsb.gov/safety

University of North Dakota research Associate professor Jim Higgins converted masses of flight data monitoring program (115,000 annual flights of the university’s fleet of 120 aircraft) into an impressive conclusion, when he commented:

“On the base-to-final turn, the aircraft nose would typically drop about 0.7 degrees more on airplanes equipped with AOA indicators than on those without. ‘One interpretation would be that pilots are responding to the angle of attack awareness and lowering the nose when turning final.’”

http://jdasolutions.aero/blog/aoa-indicator/

Cessna’s Voluntary AoA system Inclusion In the 172 Skyhawks.

So it's not just for Navy pilots this technique and skill set, many seem to think this would help stop accidents with GA if implemented with the correct training.

.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:04 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
This is a good read about installing on speed AOA indexer in GA aircraft and having the appropriate training, for safety reasons.

"Airplane owners should consider installing an AOA indicator, which, coupled with pilot understanding and training on how to best use it, can enhance situational awareness during critical or high-workload phases of flight. FAA, aviation advocacy groups, type clubs, and manufacturers, including kit manufacturers, should create and maintain educational initiatives that include general principals, best practices, and operational specifics as they relate to loss of controol.

www.ntsb.gov/safety

University of North Dakota research Associate professor Jim Higgins converted masses of flight data monitoring program (115,000 annual flights of the university’s fleet of 120 aircraft) into an impressive conclusion, when he commented:

“On the base-to-final turn, the aircraft nose would typically drop about 0.7 degrees more on airplanes equipped with AOA indicators than on those without. ‘One interpretation would be that pilots are responding to the angle of attack awareness and lowering the nose when turning final.’”

http://jdasolutions.aero/blog/aoa-indicator/

Cessna’s Voluntary AoA system Inclusion In the 172 Skyhawks.

So it's not just for Navy pilots this technique and skill set, many seem to think this would help stop accidents with GA if implemented with the correct training.

.
This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You
Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.

Last edited by SnappShot; 03-13-2018 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:33 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by SnappShot View Post
This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You
Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.
+1 Exactly. (although this is basically off topic) Furthermore the keyword is training and that's what most of the GA pilots are missing.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:40 AM   #256
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Airspeed indicator has inherent flaws, and the AoA gauges fix one of them. For short field landings, the AoA gauge will be much better for your performance and safety margins than your AS gauge. It doesn't matter the DA, the weight or the bank angle. It's always right.

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/mwl/Pages/mwl7_2015.aspx

Costs are coming down for GA. But, as good as they are, if you're a crappy pilot, another gauge ain't gonna help you.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:48 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by David OC View Post
bbrz, I'm here too learning off the pro's, there are many Navy pilots here who got past all that training
I think they know this stuff right, they practice this technique skill set for the boat, many here are trying to wrap there head around this and why it's done, like ttaylor0024 has said it's tried and tested in blood.
You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.
I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.

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Originally Posted by LJQCN101 View Post
Well i see but basically the same with a blend of Nz and pitch rate feedback. Unless they are using the C*U law, there's still no airspeed feedback to provide artificial speed stability. Hence do not apparently similar to a hornet.
I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.

Last edited by bbrz; 03-13-2018 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:50 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Airspeed indicator has inherent flaws
What flaws are you talking about?
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:58 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnappShot View Post
This would be great, but honestly IMO iit falls short in several areas, one....cost would be prohibitive in many pilots circumstances, two...the fundamental problem is basic airmanship and failing at it in many of the base to final stall spin accidents. If you cant aviate with an airspeed indicator properly, what makes me believe an aoa guage will change that. Cynical, yes, but imo the truth.l. You
Already have a psuedo aoa guage inherint in your stall horn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Airspeed indicator has inherent flaws, and the AoA gauges fix one of them. For short field landings, the AoA gauge will be much better for your performance and safety margins than your AS gauge. It doesn't matter the DA, the weight or the bank angle. It's always right.

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/mwl/Pages/mwl7_2015.aspx

Costs are coming down for GA. But, as good as they are, if you're a crappy pilot, another gauge ain't gonna help you.
If you were doing small country strips and or short field takeoffs and landings all the time, perhaps not a bad idea to have one installed? From what Ive read, I was reading somewhere how a small plane lost control coming into a short, tight strip to final with a tail wind and lost control as he came around into the tail wind, a gauge would give more warning here I guess, for the approaching stall.

.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:15 AM   #260
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...lost control as he came around into the tail wind, a gauge would give more warning here I guess, for the approaching stall.
That's a common misunderstand among non-pilots. (Steady) wind has absolutely no influence on IAS/TAS/AoA!

Furthermore if you are approaching a short runway under difficult wind conditions and you are already disregarding the ASI because you are looking out of the window during the turn, it's very likely that you will disregard an AoA gauge as well.

Last edited by bbrz; 03-13-2018 at 06:19 AM.
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