44 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Its amazing how some developers easily mange to make good useful updates every few months.

It's also amazing how many community members easily manage without while others clearly don't.

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

If all developers (ED included ) just followed the example of 

Grinnelli Designs for the F100 or FlyingIron Simulations A7 there would almost never be a problem.  Its amazing how some developers easily mange to make good useful updates every few months. While others can't manage even 5% of that transparency.

And no updates don't have to include fancy graphics or video.

If all you've been doing for 3 months is coding fine. Spend literally 5 minutes to write that. Instead of just saying noting for 1-3 years. I think it was airplane simulation company that released an update that was just showing graphs about the flight model or something like that and people found it interesting. It's super easy to just give short updates. No news is not good news.

No, we don't need a release estimate in updates. No, we don't need fancy pictures or graphics in updates.

Yes, updates can be just a graph or some numbers or literally just, sorry guys half our coders got in a bar fight with some drunk schools girls and now all their fingers are in a cast so can't code. So nothing much has happened the last 3 months. 

Transparency is always good.

The "when we have news we will share it" policy just makes things needlessly complicated. Literally 5 minutes of typing every 3 months would make the entire ED forum far less antagonistic. 

And when your products often sell based on word of mouth. Not hinding from you customers is probably good.

There is also a world of difference between a module that has been in development less than 2 years and one that has been in development for 8.

 

Sure, I think everyone would agree more frequent updates would be good. If handled correctly it is probably a net positive.

The problem, as is see it, is people feeling like devs have an obligation to do so when they’ve accepted no money.

13 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

If all developers (ED included ) just followed the example of Grinnelli Designs for the F100 or FlyingIron Simulations A7 there would almost never be a problem.  Its amazing how some developers easily mange to make good useful updates every few months. While others can't manage even 5% of that transparency.

Uhm…. ,  neither are examples. A successful example would be one that didn’t cause upset until release to the public, and as far as I know, neither has become a public available paid module.

This is isn’t any slight or criticism of Grinnelli Designs, but in a way they are in the same boat as Magnitude, in that they have projects in the works. Later, say after a SEA map is being enjoyed, Grinnelli might be facing the same kinds of criticisms. 

13 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Transparency is always good.

The "when we have news we will share it" policy just makes things needlessly complicated. Literally 5 minutes of typing every 3 months would make the entire ED forum far less antagonistic. 

From the point of view of the masses, yes, transparency always  looks good.

But, sometimes I’ve seen transparency go bad. Often, people will look at the transparency… and start to make assumptions. Leaps to conclusions. Misread the situation, often wildly. Then, further updates cause the assumptions people to REALLY lose their minds… then they think people are lying, that they are being gaslit. Then they get upset. Forever. And then the ETA's slip 6 months. Then a year, then 4 years. 

That just happened to a couple of people in my own work place. 

Sometimes there IS such a thing as "oversharing", to avoid misunderstandings. 

13 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

And when your products often sell based on word of mouth. Not hiding from you customers is probably good.

There is also a world of difference between a module that has been in development less than 2 years and one that has been in development for 8.

True. But NO ONE cares about word of mouth before a DCS release. It's literally a non-factor.

The brave/rich ones buy the first batch of modules, before the first patch. They make posts and vids about the upsides to the modules, the downsides, the bugs that need fixing, the framerate performance over this map  and that map. Multiplayer performance, does something feel “off” about the experience.

Then the second wave buys, based on the views of the first buyers. They continue to talk about hardware and framerate performances, so that the frugal virtual aviators can make a truly informed decision with their limited funds.

And none of them will care that updates were few and far between during it’s development time. They will care if it’s bug free, if framerates are pretty good on their hardware. 

Magnitude 3 is not the product, the Corsair module is the product people will be talking about.

It’s the product that matters, and updates aren’t the product.

12 hours ago, Cab said:

Sure, I think everyone would agree more frequent updates would be good. If handled correctly it is probably a net positive.

The problem, as is see it, is people feeling like devs have an obligation to do so when they’ve accepted no money.

There's 2 sides to this coin. I'm under no obligation to buy the thing they are selling either. It's a fundamental tenet of business to convince your customers to buy your product.

Keep everyone happy, put out an update every week/fortnight ( whatever form that may take). It's not that hard. 

If you're not interested in updates then it's no skin off your nose, it takes nothing from anyone and only value adds. 

Also as well articulated previously, it's one thing if a project is a year or so old, this is coming up on 8 or so years which is what it is, but to expect the same pitiful level of community engagement after this long is ridiculous. They really should lift their game.

At this point, choosing to be endlessly optimistic and defending this behaviour is silly.

3 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

There's 2 sides to this coin. I'm under no obligation to buy the thing they are selling either. It's a fundamental tenet of business to convince your customers to buy your product.

Keep everyone happy, put out an update every week/fortnight ( whatever form that may take). It's not that hard. 

If you're not interested in updates then it's no skin off your nose, it takes nothing from anyone and only value adds. 

Also as well articulated previously, it's one thing if a project is a year or so old, this is coming up on 8 or so years which is what it is, but to expect the same pitiful level of community engagement after this long is ridiculous. They really should lift their game.

At this point, choosing to be endlessly optimistic and defending this behaviour is silly.

If you arent going to buy the product, then you dont have any skin in the game. Hell, you arent really entitled to even HAVE skin in the game until you buy it so why you are still even bothering is a complete mystery. Ive been waiting on the Kiowa for almost 14 years; I was waiting on an AH-64A Apache that ED announced back in 2008 until they released the D 2 years ago. Thats what, 13 years? Quit complaining about the lack of updates because it literally could be worse; it sure as hell couldnt be worse than the peeps who bought the A-10C specifically for the Nevada map only to find out that it had to be made from scratch a 2nd time with a new engine for just as long as what you're currently complaining about. They paid -and waited.

8 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

 I'm under no obligation to buy the thing they are selling either.

It's a fundamental tenet of business to convince your customers to buy your product.

Keep everyone happy, put out an update every week/fortnight ( whatever form that may take). It's not that hard. 

If you're not interested in updates then it's no skin off your nose, it takes nothing from anyone and only value adds. 

 

• so very true, no obligation for you  to buy. Nor any obligation for you to wait with zero patience in  the form forever disapointed.  Also no obligation  for you to provide marketing advice. Say what are your  credentials in marketing?
• maybe "business"  is not their focus or goal. Maybe they are artists, hobbyists. But there is no need to convince customers when you don't yet have a product to sell

• “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”

  ― John Lydgate
• not true in every case. Generally yes  I'd agree. But when updates are unnecessary, they can often become monotonous, and start to breed resentment. 

Look, if patience is not your thing, or uncertainty as to whether the  product will arrive anytime soon, then I suggest other things to occupy your time. 

We live in a time of amusement abundance. More movies and TV shows, more books both fiction and non, more sports, more clubs to join, more DCS modules, more DCS maps than at any previous time in history... try a few of those. 

Although it's already a bit cringy, "touch grass" might be worthwhile for all of us to do more often!

9 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

There's 2 sides to this coin. I'm under no obligation to buy the thing they are selling either. It's a fundamental tenet of business to convince your customers to buy your product.

This may be the fundamental misunderstanding. At this time they don’t have a product to sell, and they aren’t pretending otherwise. 

10 hours ago, Rick50 said:

Nor any obligation for you to wait with zero patience in  the form forever disapointed. 

I have always wondered why some people seem to believe that they aren't entitled to  anything.  Is it a self esteem issue or just the sort of logic that refers to nine years of waiting as "zero" patience.

3 minutes ago, billythebassman said:

I have always wondered why some people seem to believe that they aren't entitled to  anything.  Is it a self esteem issue or just the sort of logic that refers to nine years of waiting as "zero" patience.

Maybe they aren’t arrogant tools or maybe they weren’t spoilt enough

24 minutes ago, Krupi said:

Maybe they aren’t arrogant tools or maybe they weren’t spoilt enough

Yeah...that's probably it.

1 hour ago, billythebassman said:

I have always wondered why some people seem to believe that they aren't entitled to  anything.  Is it a self esteem issue or just the sort of logic that refers to nine years of waiting as "zero" patience.

Exactly right. The endless keyboard defenders will come up with every reason under the sun to defend something that is very obviously poor customer relations. Arguing with them is like arguing with a flat earther. It's shilling in it's purest form. 

Just write a forum post more than once in a blue moon M3 it's not that hard. People have put in 10x the amount of effort trying to justify why you don't. 

No contract exists.

No monies have changed hands, no written or verbal agreements have been made. 

So yet again, we see meaningless opinion, whether in support or in criticism, much of it directed at forum members who have nothing to do with the progress of the product, simply because they have different expectations. 

In this case, the developer has already stated that they will not respond to further requests. Looking at some of the attitudes here, they have chosen wisely.

Well, that was fun guys.  Have a Corsair.

33 minutes ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

No contract exists.

No one is suggesting a legal obligation to communicate with potential customers ...only the common courtesy to which everyone  is entitled.

8 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

Exactly right. The endless keyboard defenders will come up with every reason under the sun to defend something that is very obviously poor customer relations. Arguing with them is like arguing with a flat earther. It's shilling in it's purest form. 

Just write a forum post more than once in a blue moon M3 it's not that hard. People have put in 10x the amount of effort trying to justify why you don't. 

You know what isnt welcome around here? Incessant whining about things they cant control. How they do business is THEIR business much like how you do business is YOUR business. You go put out a 3rd party module and then maybe you have a right to criticize. But you are under no obligation to tell anyone how to run their business. Why are you still here? 

13 hours ago, billythebassman said:

No one is suggesting a legal obligation to communicate with potential customers ...only the common courtesy to which everyone  is entitled.

Common courtesy to just let them get on with the job rather than deal with entitled moaners

I dont think constantly calling people "entitled", is going to make them any more patient.

Remember the rules....
 

Quote

1.10 Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome. Additionally, to bring up a particular issue repeatedly after it has already been acknowledged will be considered "trolling" - in such cases a warning will be issued to the author and the post will be removed.

I have no idea why there's such a giant amount of time between the original announcement and today, or whether a release is imminent or another few years away. 

And the critics are right, it's not the most friendly of PR to get so little idea of just how far or close a release might be.

In previous posts in this thread I just tried to provide context as to some of the things (not even all of the possibilities) that have caused problems for combat flight sim dev teams in the past. If that makes me a shill, then so be it. I disagree with that characterisation, but everybody''s entitled to their opinion.

The team out of Redmond Washington, flew three prop combat variants. But long, LONG before that, they were apparently working on, for the time (early-mid 1990's I think?), VERY ambitious jet vs jet combat flight sim. It was never announced, because the team didn't think it was anywhere near ready, and were very much not sure when, if ever, it would work on the hardware of the era or even what was in sight in future. The code was there, one description was that they were modelling the actual radar waves and how they interact with fire controls, and missiles and such. It was to be Mig-29 Fulcrum vs...a Viper or Hornet, I can't recall. I've no idea why it never got to the "release to public" stage... I kinda think that the computer hardware never could run the code without crashing or stuttering, or very poor framerates, might have been the problem, but that's just a raw guess. 

What's my point about that? Simply that even a company/team with basically UNLIMITED budgets, resources and talent, a true giant in computer world, capable of greatness many times over, couldn't deliver a promising project that might have been phenomenal, if only one or a couple of factors were a bit different. Wisely, they decided to keep that project hush quiet until it looked to be on solid ground... and never achieved it.

As for the Magnitude Corsair module, the screens look amazing! And yes, I think it's still gonna be a wait before it comes to the ED store. When it does, expect a bunch of tweets, posts in forums, vlog reviews and intros on Youtube. 

On 3/17/2024 at 2:09 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

Who's jerking you around? Someone posts a screenshot and all the sudden its in release phase? Being an uptight tw@ isnt going to speed up the development.

On 3/17/2024 at 4:32 AM, Cab said:

Who, exactly, is jerking you around. They've taken no money; they've made no promises.

You and others need to rethink this.

 

Reasonable expectations and honesty.

Sit in a restaurant, handed a menu, and told by the waiter that they will be right back.

"Two Weeks."

Sure it's a joke, but hearing it every two weeks would be honest.

Not liking what others think about it is a whole nother problem.

Bowie

39 minutes ago, Bowie said:

Sit in a restaurant, handed a menu, and told by the waiter that they will be right back.

That is quite literally not what’s happening here.

A closer comparison might be a sign advertising the building your favorite restaurant right down the street but it never opens. 

1 hour ago, Bowie said:

Reasonable expectations and honesty.

Sit in a restaurant, handed a menu, and told by the waiter that they will be right back.

"Two Weeks."

Sure it's a joke, but hearing it every two weeks would be honest.

Not liking what others think about it is a whole nother problem.

Bowie

The facts are what they are, and they are immutable. Nobody in DCS World, nor ED nor any 3rd party ever gives you a release date in years, because everyone knows that they are not going to happen, the most recent example Heatblur and the F-14 and now the F-4E. ED learned it the hard way a long time ago during the time of the release of the F-16C (and the problems it had due to a hasty launch), less a 3rd party like Magnitude 3, but when everything has to go through the hand of ED, since it always has the last word on when a module output will be seen or not. Only when Magnitude 3 and ED communicate that they are in internal testing and in the final stretch, can we start thinking about "release dates."

Those who claim "8 years" forget the problems the Magnitude 3 team has had, a team split and having to start their development from scratch without members, Covid and even rewriting the module from scratch some times, but that X years looks very nice as a drama / mantra. Someone here forgets that the AH-64, F-16C and the Mig-29.... were claimed as modules by ED, back in the days of Ka-50 / A-10C, more than 12 years ago.

33 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The facts are what they are, and they are immutable. Nobody in DCS World, nor ED nor any 3rd party ever gives you a release date in years, because everyone knows that they are not going to happen, the most recent example ...........

 

I think thats the wrong conclusion to take home from being off on a release date. Itd be better to go back in retrospective and look at why the release slipped and add that slippage time to your estimate, not just blanket statement "we will never announce a release date until a month before hand is guaranteed"

52 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The facts are what they are, and they are immutable. Nobody in DCS World, nor ED nor any 3rd party ever gives you a release date in years, because everyone knows that they are not going to happen, the most recent example Heatblur and the F-14 and now the F-4E. ED learned it the hard way a long time ago during the time of the release of the F-16C (and the problems it had due to a hasty launch), less a 3rd party like Magnitude 3, but when everything has to go through the hand of ED, since it always has the last word on when a module output will be seen or not. Only when Magnitude 3 and ED communicate that they are in internal testing and in the final stretch, can we start thinking about "release dates."

Those who claim "8 years" forget the problems the Magnitude 3 team has had, a team split and having to start their development from scratch without members, Covid and even rewriting the module from scratch some times, but that X years looks very nice as a drama / mantra. Someone here forgets that the AH-64, F-16C and the Mig-29.... were claimed as modules by ED, back in the days of Ka-50 / A-10C, more than 12 years ago.

 

The most disturbing thing about this is the sycophantic defense of a poor business practice.

"Relax, we are building your house."

Eight years later - "You don't understand, and it's wrong to question."

Why?

No one - is asking for anything but common courtesy, and adults know that it will be ready when it's ready.

And again, administrative threats - are a poor substitute for argument in the arena of ideas.

Bowie

This is a waste of time. 
 

I’m out