Defeating Tomcats (In Hornet)

A friend of mine and I are having trouble defeating tomcats in the hornet. Starting from 150nm, at 25,000 ft.

This is over the ocean in the Persian gulf, so terrain masking isnt an option.

We are having trouble entering the notch, it would seem.

As soon as one of us gets engaged, that person will go defensive while the other stays high and tries to get a shot off to force the tomcats to go defensive. However we both always end up getting within 15-20 miles, a little long for an AMRAAM shot but in the zone where a phoenix is basically inescapable. What is the best strategy here? What are we doing wrong? What is your strategy? All help welcome.

Sacrifice a couple of 120s between 30-40nm to force them defensive before they can get a RNE pheonix shot off?

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

It should be pointed out that the performance of the current AI F-14 and Phoenix are not representative of how the Heatblur ones will perform if that’s what you are preaparing for.

It should be pointed out that the performance of the current AI F-14 and Phoenix are not representative of how the Heatblur ones will perform if that’s what you are preaparing for.

Something I’ve been curious about, are the low poly AI 14’s and magical Phoenix being replaced by HB’s 14’s and Phoenix when they release?

You need to keep notching the missile. 54C has a lot more energy then any other missile we're used to, so, if you exit the notch too early, it will reacquire you and still has enough energy to get you. Get to notch, pop chaff, and stay there until you're sure missile has passed you.

Use this to close the distance to some 7nm and as soon as you defeat last missile at this range, turn in, use ACM to lock him and shoot.

No point trading shots at long distances, he'll most probably defeat them anyway. Shooting from shorter ranges has many advantages - you can acquire him with ACM modes rather then looking for him, your missile goes active immediately so you can defend right away if he get's off another shot and it's much harder to defeat at this range.

Also, some people make a mistake of trying to notch the Tomcat's radar, you need to notch the missile's radar.

It should be pointed out that the performance of the current AI F-14 and Phoenix are not representative of how the Heatblur ones will perform if that’s what you are preaparing for.

There is little evidence that Heatblur's phoenix underperforms compared to ED's phoenix currently in the game.

Especially considering the C (smokeless variant) and the A Mk2 with the longer burning motor.

I think the bigger problem is that the AI cheats and pretty much knows where you are exactly so their radars are harder to notch.

Also, some people make a mistake of trying to notch the Tomcat's radar, you need to notch the missile's radar.

This may change once Heatblur's F-14 and Phoenix are in. It appears the missile has the capability of flipping back and forth between active and SARH mode as needed. Meaning if you notch the missile, and the firing platform has an STT lock, the missile may well still see you.

This assumes the AI gets access to Heatblur's missiles, of course.

There is little evidence that Heatblur's phoenix underperforms compared to ED's phoenix currently in the game.

 

Especially considering the C (smokeless variant) and the A Mk2 with the longer burning motor.

 

I think the bigger problem is that the AI cheats and pretty much knows where you are exactly so their radars are harder to notch.

Where did I suggest it would under perform? I'm simply saying don't expect either the aircraft or the missile to behave in exactly the same way, either better or worse in both cases.

Only way I've been able to do it reliably is with terrain masking or sometimes extreme manoeuvring to defeat the missile in the last few seconds, where its high speed works against it :(

I think we have to ask whether the Hornet is presently a very good air superiority fighter. Give me TWS and I might be able to do something with it, but it'll still be slow, and short on fuel.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have some F15's (or F14's) back there spamming long-range missiles, and let the Hornets zip in close with 9x's once you have the Tomcats on the defensive?

I dunno, seems to me that BVR with say 2 vs 2 is playing the Tomcat's game.

Yes, it definitely is playing the Tomcat's game but my friend and I are determined to do it.

here's the mission if anyone can do it (works in 1 Vs 2 single player if you're REALLY suicidal)

If anyone can beat this, post a track? or video? or TacView? Anything?

KobyashiMaru.miz

Great mission name! Waiting for Jim to respond...

Great mission name! Waiting for Jim to respond...

glad someone caught the reference :)

Something I’ve been curious about, are the low poly AI 14’s and magical Phoenix being replaced by HB’s 14’s and Phoenix when they release?

Yes, but not immediately. The F-14B is releasing first. The AI in game is the F-14A, so whenever HB come out with their version of the F-14A it will replace the old AI one. Suppose it is possible for ED the modify the F-14A so that it uses the HB Phoenix, but I think they will just wait for the F-14A to be released.

Since it's called KobyashiMaru, I couldn't resist just to try it. It's doable, but haaaaard. Couple of things:

- your original loadout was bit too excessive on 120s. F18 handles like a brick if you put anything at all on those wing pylons. Take 2x 120 and 2x 9x, that's enough - and you can actually turn.

- In the end I had to change CM loadout to 5 flares for terminal engagement and 115 chaff. With standard 60 / 30, ... I don't think it's possible to beat it.

Tactics is pretty simple - stay in the notch, let them come to you and when they are close, about 10nm, after you beat that last 54, turn in and shoot them.

You need to save your chaff for the close ranges so try to defeat the first two salvos with maneuver and once under 20nm always keep chaffing and notching until you see the missile pass, they tend to relock after you leave the notch or stop chaffing.

Not sure what the AI does in 2v2 though and honestly I don't have that much experience in it, but you can try to split them and play it as 2 separate engagements and if they follow just one of you, the other one can flank them and shoot them.

Tacview attached.

Uf, good challenge though.

Tacview-DCS-KobyashiMaru.zip