Call the Ball (Pitch vs Power)

Just got Stable 2.5.2+ and the F/A-C Module (couldn't resist after seeing this video:

Gave the Instant Action Case I Carrier Recovery a few tries. Made it (Permission to come) Aboard 2 out of 3 Attempts (a 2-Wire and a 4-Wire). Instead of flying the actual Recovery Pattern - I just made some long Straight-Ins to get a feel for the F-18.

I noticed one (unexpected) trait that surprised me a little:

- During Power Reductions - the Aircraft is Quick to lose Airspeed, and not so Quick to Increase it's rate of descent (Vertical Velocity).

- Many (other) Aircraft respond quicker to Power reductions by pitching over to seek their Trimmed Airspeed (a characteristic of Stability), making Power inputs (both +/-) a method of controlling altitude and glideslope.

- It appears that Full-Flaps put a healthy amount of Drag on the Hornet - maybe the reason for the (relativly) rapid Loss of Airspeed during Power Reductions

- I was expecting small reductions in Power to be more effective in modulating Vertical Velocity (Rate of Descent).

- I know Larger/Heavier Aircraft (Like Figher Jets when compared against Light Prop GA Birds) have more Inertia and Momentum, and therefore don't react as quickly to power changes in regard to Rate of Descent, but the Hornet surprised me at it's resistance to descend and would rather bleed airspeed.

- My Impression is that the hornet is a Hands on Aircraft requiring coordinated Pitch & Power Inputs, along with a Good Cross-Check, to see what Performance Changes are happening.

Reference - Basic (T-34C) Navy Flight Training:

Glideslope Corrections

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-330_wch5/Figure-7-9-Glideslope-Corrections-129.htm

The glideslope (altitude) is controlled primarily with power, and the attitude/

airspeed primarily with the stick, but it cannot be overemphasized that there

must be a coordinated use of both in any correction. In analyzing a situation,there are two basic elements to be considered: speed (either fast or slow) and altitude (either high or low). There are many possible combinations of these elements, which will compound the error analysis and correction. The following is a list of the most common deviations and corrections to ensure the"perfect approach." (Figure 7-9)

Now - is this just me (maybe) not being experienced enough with the Hornet - or did anyone else notice something similar ?

Yep, it's really hard to keep it in the sweet spot.

If you throttle back a little too much, waiting for the engines to spool up again feels like an eternity as well.

That's probably why Navy pilots get to practice at least 300 landings on a runway masquerading as a carrier deck before they ever get to a carrier for real.

Also, be aware that the Hornet is still in early release, and needs a lot of work before it is complete, and although we don't know for certain, it may also include low speed handling.

Oh and if there was any wind component in the mission you were flying (and regulations say you need a minimum of 25 knots over the deck, preferably 30) then there is also the loss of lift owing to the burble to take into account too.

FYI, the burble is the turbulent air coming off the island when you are in close and need all the lift you can get.

my understanding is that you trim a pitch attitude for your angle of attack and control rate of descent with throttle while in the pattern. even very slight power changes result in large changes in rate of descent or climb. and the engines do take some time to respond.

my understanding is that you trim a pitch attitude for your angle of attack and control rate of descent with throttle while in the pattern. even very slight power changes result in large changes in rate of descent or climb. and the engines do take some time to respond.

This is correct. Small adjustments on the throttle, esp when lowering it, then wait for the lag and drop/rise.

- My Impression is that the hornet is a Hands on Aircraft requiring coordinated Pitch & Power Inputs, along with a Good Cross-Check, to see what Performance Changes are happening.

Should be power only. Once dirty you trim the aircraft such that you're on-speed with the orange donut in the AoA indexer, and the VV should be in the middle of the E-bracket. At that point, if you take your hands off the stick and increase power, the VV and E-bracket will rise as a pair while you maintain on-speed. Reduce power, and the VV and E-bracket will fall as a pair while you maintain on-speed.

When in the carrier pattern I use zero pitch inputs on my stick after setting trim.

You gotta learn to power up as you pitch up... It's a delicate touch but it works for me.... It's all about keeping the Velocity Vector in the middle of the E. Even if you manage to do it at the last second (Which I usually do) it works.

You gotta learn to power up as you pitch up... It';s a delicate touch but it works for me.... It's all about keeping the Velocity Vector in the middle of the E. Even if you manage to do it at the last second (Which I usually do) it works.

You trim for on speed AoA. Once this is done, you shouldn't pitch up or down with the stick in the hornet. Glideslope and decent rate is all controlled with the throttle. Lateral stick for lineup. That's it.

You trim for on speed AoA. Once this is done, you shouldn't pitch up or down with the stick in the hornet. Glideslope and decent rate is all controlled with the throttle. Lateral stick for lineup. That's it.

That's not the way I do it and I really don't care if it's the right or wrong way, for me, it works. I find that the lag in engine response to throttle input makes staying on speed very hard so I compensate by using both stick and throttle. In real life, LSO's don't really care what you do as long as you score well and catch the no. 3 wire. "Do your pilot shit to get the plane on the deck safely."

Check out this video @ 2:10 and see how much the pilot uses both Stick and throttle. Take the weather conditions out of the equation and he will still be using both to land although not as vigorously.

From everything that is out there about on speed AOA this video is by far one of the best to really understand how and why this is done. Jabbers video is also excellent, but should come after the one below.

Much more about this on speed and Hook to ramp here.

That's not the way I do it and I really don't care if it's the right or wrong way, for me, it works. I find that the lag in engine response to throttle input makes staying on speed very hard so I compensate by using both stick and throttle. In real life, LSO's don't really care what you do as long as you score well and catch the no. 3 wire. "Do your pilot shit to get the plane on the deck safely."

 

Check out this video @ 2:10 and see how much the pilot uses both Stick and throttle. Take the weather conditions out of the equation and he will still be using both to land although not as vigorously.

 

Bad habits are bad habits, and I suspect you're making a bit of an assumption that LSOs don't care how you handle an aircraft. Why not take a look at the real world pilot videos and keep an open mind about this. You may find it is much easier to leave the stick centred, and rely on thrust alone to achieve stable flight. After all, there is an awful lot to be said for changing just one thing at a time and achieving predictability. The more extra factors you add, the more likely you are to screw up when it is most critical not to.

The other aspect to this is that just because you choose to do things incorrectly, why should we sit back and let you pass on dirty habits to people who want to find the easiest and safest solution to a particular problem. Might I suggest you sit at the back of the classroom and do things your way if you must, but please, don't try to pass on your vices to others. There IS a right way, and no self respecting LSO would ever encourage unsafe practices of this nature. On speed AOA is a critical check point on approaches, and you'll never achieve an OK pass without sticking to the numbers.

Trim for on speed AoA and then just use throttle to adjust flight path. Practice with gear and flaps full from 10000 feet, trim perfectly then keep AoA on speed all the way down to 1500 feet. Try activating auto throttle just to see how you should use the throttle to keep the speed.

Trim for on speed AoA and then just use throttle to adjust flight path. Practice with gear and flaps full from 10000 feet, trim perfectly then keep AoA on speed all the way down to 1500 feet. Try activating auto throttle just to see how you should use the throttle to keep the speed.

An Excellent Training Exercise - Great Advice.

My Take-Aways:

- I achieved stabilized approach parameters (F-18C Instant Action Case Recovery Scenario - See Screenshot) as follows:

-- 3 Degree Glideslope (descending flight path)

-- Amber Donut at 133 KIAS

-- 93% Core RPM

-- 1,200fpm descending VVI probably a liite too quick (think 800 fpm descent is closer to target)

- Relatively Small Throttle (Power) changes can induce (with some slight lag) effective changes in Vertical Velocity, and you have to lead with power to stabilize and/or reverse the induced (VV up/down) trend.

- Too large of Power Reductions can also bleed off airspeed, so don't yank a Fistfull of Throttle Off

- To minimize Power Changes I tried a Trick I use when flying formation with the F-5E; just use one throttle (for small position adjustments) helps with not over-controlling the Go-fast Levers. Allows smoother and morte controllable adjustments of power. BUT - with the Hornet (despite almost centerline thrust engine alignment), I got enough Yawing Moments to be Distracting. One Engine power input Technique didn't work for me.

- IMHO, Don't rule out (entirely) small & timely Pitch changes with Stick (especially as you get close in). With any Precision Approach (PAR, ILS, Carrier), you're going down an ever constricting Funnel. Real Distance relating to Angular displacement from Course and Glideslope gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to touchdown. As you get close to the Boat, because of response Lag in VV change (from only modulating Power), I find that Slight coordinated & timely Pitch input can help fine tune staying On-Course and On-Glideslope.

- For the most Part, Smooth & Small Throttle Movement (power changes) along with lateral stick (course) adjustments seem to do the Trick

- I still get the Illusion that grabbing the 3-Wire looks like I'm landing Long and will Bolter. Guess I just need lots mo Practice !

I still get the Illusion that grabbing the 3-Wire looks like I'm landing Long and will Bolter

thats a constant. and I can catch the 3 wire 75% of the times.

This has some information addressing your issue with power management, and how I go about doing it, sorry i dont have a time index, I'm currently at work

[Youtube]cW5R32Q6xC8

Check out this video @ 2:10 and see how much the pilot uses both Stick and throttle. Take the weather conditions out of the equation and he will still be using both to land although not as vigorously.

 

I saw that video a while back and the throttle's work is tremendous. I now rock my throttle and I'm more proactive moving it back and forth. Not a mad, senseless rocking but rather a premeditated and proactive one. It has helped me a lot to get into great glide slopes.

About the stick, I don't know, I don't need to move it all unless my alignment is off. You are on you own about that. :thumbup:

Cheers,

That's not the way I do it and I really don't care if it's the right or wrong way, for me, it works. I find that the lag in engine response to throttle input makes staying on speed very hard so I compensate by using both stick and throttle. In real life, LSO's don't really care what you do as long as you score well and catch the no. 3 wire. "Do your pilot shit to get the plane on the deck safely."

Yikes, nope, not at all accurate. Literally the farthest from the truth.

To add to the confusion, wait until the Tomcat arrives - I heard once in a documentary (Speed and angels?) that the F-14 is a bit of an exception, because you had to use the stick as well as the throttle to make glideslope corrections (and the DLC!), you couldn't fly it like a T-45. Correct me if I heard it wrong...

That's not the way I do it and I really don't care if it's the right or wrong way, for me, it works. I find that the lag in engine response to throttle input makes staying on speed very hard so I compensate by using both stick and throttle. In real life, LSO's don't really care what you do as long as you score well and catch the no. 3 wire. "Do your pilot shit to get the plane on the deck safely."

Forum post of the month? This hurt to read after a month of doing it properly and it turned out LSOs dont really care /s.

PNU - Pitched Nose Up, something that contributes to a bad grade.

Might I add that LSOs wouldn't say "do some of that pilot shit" since they are pilots, in fact one of the best pilots in their squadrons, and they know exactly what would lead to a DQ or no-grade and what wouldn't. This would.

How Close to the Real Hornet ?

Been working hard on Case I Recoveries, and after my share of 3 Wires I'm still concerned with the Hornet's Flight Model.

IMHO: I believe The F/A-18C Flight Model is exaggerated in the rapidity at which the Vertical Velocity responds to slight Power Changes. The very quick response (change) in VVI is too pronounced in onset; not that the reaction is invalid - it's Not. All Aircraft respond to Thrust changes buy seeking their Trimmed Alpha (Airspeed), but in the F/A-18C Flight Model - it seems unrealistic.

I've never flown the Hornet - but I've flown other aircraft in its' size and weight class. They all responded to Power Changes with a corresponding change in Vertical Velocity - but because of Momentum and inertia - the Response was not nearly pronounced as the DCS Hornet. Light GA Aircraft (which I fly now) respond very rapidly to power Changes with VV Change, but I don't think the 30,000 Pound Hornet should do so proportionally.

The Hornet Flight Model seems to over-emphasize VV Change in response to small Power Changes while de-emphasizing Flight Path Changes in response to the Pilot's small fined tuned Pitch Changes.

(Mach x Pitch = VVI); but the Flight Model seems to take instinctive Pitch Changes out of the Pilot's Tool Bag. Past Experience dictated that Fine Tuning an Approach required simultaneous coordinated Pitch and Power corrections. The DCS Hornet is way too dependent on Power Changes alone to control Flight Path Vector.

I've flown hundreds of Flight Sim Aircraft (in different Flight Sims) over that last 15 Years and I will tell you that this Hornet is unique in the way it flies. That doesn't necessarily make it Wrong - just very different. But different enough to make me wonder.

Now I'll be the First to Admit that I could be Totally Wrong - it's happened once or twice before. What I'm wondering is if we have some Real World Hornet Drivers to respond with some definitive advice on how the Real Hornet Flies.

THANX ! :joystick:

You gotta learn to power up as you pitch up... It's a delicate touch but it works for me.... It's all about keeping the Velocity Vector in the middle of the E. Even if you manage to do it at the last second (Which I usually do) it works.

As Precog said, triming is the key. I usualy never touch the stick to adjust pitch once i get out of the break (execpt when turning in downind, i input some stick forward to avoid going over 800 ft while i trim) until i trap, stick input are mostly only to adjust roll as i turn. Throttle only adjust RoD. Even though this is not how you do it or care, it'S 10 tiems easier than any other way, as you totaly predict where yoy go and control the aircraft, and not left the aircraft control you. But if it's fine with you good. :)

To add to the confusion, wait until the Tomcat arrives - I heard once in a documentary (Speed and angels?) that the F-14 is a bit of an exception, because you had to use the stick as well as the throttle to make glideslope corrections (and the DLC!), you couldn't fly it like a T-45. Correct me if I heard it wrong...

Maybe, but now we are talking about the Hornet, don'T confuse people with future coming module as people will read on it once it sees the day, but it can take over 4-6 years as the Hornet took even more, so let's stick to the way « stick » is handled in the Hornet in it's Forum section :)

That's not the way I do it and I really don't care if it's the right or wrong way, for me, it works. I find that the lag in engine response to throttle input makes staying on speed very hard so I compensate by using both stick and throttle. In real life, LSO's don't really care what you do as long as you score well and catch the no. 3 wire. "Do your pilot shit to get the plane on the deck safely."

 

Check out this video @ 2:10 and see how much the pilot uses both Stick and throttle. Take the weather conditions out of the equation and he will still be using both to land although not as vigorously.

 

Instead of looking at his stick moving as he might adjust roll as he'S getting ready to turn, pay closer attention to his right thumb excatly at the timeline you gave us, see it moving? See where his thumb goes? it's the Trim Hat So as many of us said, trim is the key. But again if you like the way you do it, it's fine for you.

Is anyone using the trim effectively? I find the trim function in this sim is too slow to use.

Once in the groove, I just achieve AOA with indexer centered, hit ATA and fly the bird on to the deck. I can't see the "Ball" because it's just too small, some sort of ball graphic is required to do this as real world aviators do? I mean they call the ball and focus on that alone with small glances to the wires, so something like the joystick position indicator, as a "ball" would be fine and dandy!

Cheers.

Been working hard on Case I Recoveries, and after my share of 3 Wires I'm still concerned with the Hornet's Flight Model.

 

IMHO: I believe The F/A-18C Flight Model is exaggerated in the rapidity at which the Vertical Velocity responds to slight Power Changes. The very quick response (change) in VVI is too pronounced in onset; not that the reaction is invalid - it's Not. All Aircraft respond to Thrust changes buy seeking their Trimmed Alpha (Airspeed), but in the F/A-18C Flight Model - it seems unrealistic.

 

I've never flown the Hornet - but I've flown other aircraft in its' size and weight class. They all responded to Power Changes with a corresponding change in Vertical Velocity - but because of Momentum and inertia - the Response was not nearly pronounced as the DCS Hornet. Light GA Aircraft (which I fly now) respond very rapidly to power Changes with VV Change, but I don't think the 30,000 Pound Hornet should do so proportionally.

 

The Hornet Flight Model seems to over-emphasize VV Change in response to small Power Changes while de-emphasizing Flight Path Changes in response to the Pilot's small fined tuned Pitch Changes.

 

(Mach x Pitch = VVI); but the Flight Model seems to take instinctive Pitch Changes out of the Pilot's Tool Bag. Past Experience dictated that Fine Tuning an Approach required simultaneous coordinated Pitch and Power corrections. The DCS Hornet is way too dependent on Power Changes alone to control Flight Path Vector.

 

I've flown hundreds of Flight Sim Aircraft (in different Flight Sims) over that last 15 Years and I will tell you that this Hornet is unique in the way it flies. That doesn't necessarily make it Wrong - just very different. But different enough to make me wonder.

 

Now I'll be the First to Admit that I could be Totally Wrong - it's happened once or twice before. What I'm wondering is if we have some Real World Hornet Drivers to respond with some definitive advice on how the Real Hornet Flies.

 

THANX ! :joystick:

I think this comes from the nature of the hornet’s FCS. When you adjust the power after having trimmed for onspeed AoA the airplane will automatically make pitch adjustments to maintain set AoA and speed. Which is why when you increase power the plane will not speed up but instead pitch up to keep AoA.

Is anyone using the trim effectively? I find the trim function in this sim is too slow to use.

 

Once in the groove, I just achieve AOA with indexer centered, hit ATA and fly the bird on to the deck. I can't see the "Ball" because it's just too small, some sort of ball graphic is required to do this as real world aviators do? I mean they call the ball and focus on that alone with small glances to the wires, so something like the joystick position indicator, as a "ball" would be fine and dandy!

 

Cheers.

I personaly find it ok, as i trim each circomstances to avoid major trim, IE if i'm going 450 i trim for that speed, when i slow down to 350 i retrim for that speed, if going for holding at 250, i trim once i'm at 250.. so basicly, when i break at 350, i trim a bit as i almost get wing level but the most of it is made as i descent to 600 ft i trim to intercept the E Bracket, so basicly by the time i'm ready to start my 180 i am already trimed long time, i only retrim in the groove if i get a green or red chevron, which is rare. Dunno how it react in real life or it's done, but works for me this way.

As for the ball, i had issues at first, specialy in VR. but after so many patterns and practice i get to know where i need to be etc.. so the ball i mostly only fly it once i'm 3/4 of a miles or even in close when it's clear, before that it's a reference from what i can see, further than this visual references helps me. If i'm further and i see red light i know i'm too low, if no light, either too high or too slow, that is where my altitude tells me, i'f i'm 3/4 NM and i'm at 450 ft i know i'm too high if i can'T see a light, if i'm at 100 ft i know i'm too low... so i try to aim 470 at the 90, 370 as i cross the wake. If i see a yellow light when i get in the groove i know i'm mostly on glideslope, maybe a tiny lower or higher, but i adjust when i get to see the ball clearly. But again this all comes easier with the many practice i did.

Is anyone using the trim effectively? I find the trim function in this sim is too slow to use.

 

Once in the groove, I just achieve AOA with indexer centered, hit ATA and fly the bird on to the deck. I can't see the "Ball" because it's just too small, some sort of ball graphic is required to do this as real world aviators do? I mean they call the ball and focus on that alone with small glances to the wires, so something like the joystick position indicator, as a "ball" would be fine and dandy!

 

Cheers.

Trim works very quickly once flaps are at full and gear is down. If you are not in proper landing configuration then trim is less sensitive because the FCS automatically takes care of pitch trim.

Been working hard on Case I Recoveries, and after my share of 3 Wires I'm still concerned with the Hornet's Flight Model.

 

IMHO: I believe The F/A-18C Flight Model is exaggerated in the rapidity at which the Vertical Velocity responds to slight Power Changes. The very quick response (change) in VVI is too pronounced in onset; not that the reaction is invalid - it's Not. All Aircraft respond to Thrust changes buy seeking their Trimmed Alpha (Airspeed), but in the F/A-18C Flight Model - it seems unrealistic.

 

I've never flown the Hornet - but I've flown other aircraft in its' size and weight class. They all responded to Power Changes with a corresponding change in Vertical Velocity - but because of Momentum and inertia - the Response was not nearly pronounced as the DCS Hornet. Light GA Aircraft (which I fly now) respond very rapidly to power Changes with VV Change, but I don't think the 30,000 Pound Hornet should do so proportionally.

 

The Hornet Flight Model seems to over-emphasize VV Change in response to small Power Changes while de-emphasizing Flight Path Changes in response to the Pilot's small fined tuned Pitch Changes.

 

(Mach x Pitch = VVI); but the Flight Model seems to take instinctive Pitch Changes out of the Pilot's Tool Bag. Past Experience dictated that Fine Tuning an Approach required simultaneous coordinated Pitch and Power corrections. The DCS Hornet is way too dependent on Power Changes alone to control Flight Path Vector.

 

I've flown hundreds of Flight Sim Aircraft (in different Flight Sims) over that last 15 Years and I will tell you that this Hornet is unique in the way it flies. That doesn't necessarily make it Wrong - just very different. But different enough to make me wonder.

 

Now I'll be the First to Admit that I could be Totally Wrong - it's happened once or twice before. What I'm wondering is if we have some Real World Hornet Drivers to respond with some definitive advice on how the Real Hornet Flies.

 

THANX ! :joystick:

Tenkom said:

I think this comes from the nature of the hornet’s FCS. When you adjust the power after having trimmed for onspeed AoA the airplane will automatically make pitch adjustments to maintain set AoA and speed. Which is why when you increase power the plane will not speed up but instead pitch up to keep AoA.

Talonx1 said:

Trim works very quickly once flaps are at full and gear is down. If you are not in proper landing configuration then trim is less sensitive because the FCS automatically takes care of pitch trim.

Thank you fellers for the Information. With your Help - I'm starting to understand why the Hornet flies the way it does. :pilotfly: