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Old 11-02-2017, 07:05 AM   #21
PeaceSells
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Originally Posted by Penshoon View Post
Thanks for posting that, inspired me to do a similar flight right away.
Lol you guys...

You even set the small FOV and the horizontal stripe in the lower part of the screen to simulate the camera in the cockpit! Lol
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:32 PM   #22
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I never noticed but the DCS HUD has major errors. The horizon-parallel lines aren't. The nose reference marker is moving relative to the nose at double the bank angle.

If anyone can demonstrate a channel-normal Ka-50 fight with airliner-type turns without any upsets in attitude on trim button presses I'd like to see it. I can't fly the helicopter 100% smoothly. No matter how smoothly I try every trim press has a transient impulse simply due to the channel authority being switched off suddenly. It has nothing to do with shifting stick position.

The real helicopter can't possibly act this way.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederf View Post
I never noticed but the DCS HUD has major errors. The horizon-parallel lines aren't. The nose reference marker is moving relative to the nose at double the bank angle.
According to Chizh the Hud in the real video is supposed to be an early variant that was refused. The default hud in DCS is a later more modern variant.
I use a mod to changes the scales and bird mark too look more like in that video: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...2&postcount=46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederf View Post
If anyone can demonstrate a channel-normal Ka-50 fight with airliner-type turns without any upsets in attitude on trim button presses I'd like to see it. I can't fly the helicopter 100% smoothly. No matter how smoothly I try every trim press has a transient impulse simply due to the channel authority being switched off suddenly. It has nothing to do with shifting stick position.

The real helicopter can't possibly act this way.
The upsets in attitude in there in the real video, it's just comes with the system. The kamov is one of the few actual mil sim modules that ED managed to get to us consumers. If a critical system like autopilot behaviour during trimming wasn't accurate it wouldn't have been good enough for pilot training. With practice it's possible to be minimised.

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Originally Posted by Matt Wagner
In order to provide the most realistic experience of flying the Ka-50, Kamov has supplied us with a host of information not available to the general public. Once we had beta versions of the software available for testing, Kamov reviewed the software for accuracy (systems and flight dynamics) and helped us revise the simulation for greater realism.
Military contracts are not a license to print money, as often they are required to be done on a “cost plus” basis, and I can assure you that they are very demanding as the simulation has to be perfect so as not to introduce “negative training”.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:17 PM   #24
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Thank you
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:54 PM   #25
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No matter what real pilots in the shark do or why they do it... holding the button during transient maneuver is better for me. I've tried both ways. There is no way to remove the jumps that occur with the press-release style but you CAN do so with the hold style. This in an of itself is enough for me to say the hold style is better. This is due to the tip touching issue at the edges of the performance envelope.

That said... I use a force sensing X65F (NOT force feedback) stick so my experience may be due in part to that.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penshoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederf View Post
If anyone can demonstrate a channel-normal Ka-50 fight with airliner-type turns without any upsets in attitude on trim button presses I'd like to see it. I can't fly the helicopter 100% smoothly. No matter how smoothly I try every trim press has a transient impulse simply due to the channel authority being switched off suddenly. It has nothing to do with shifting stick position.

The real helicopter can't possibly act this way.
The upsets in attitude in there in the real video, it's just comes with the system. The kamov is one of the few actual mil sim modules that ED managed to get to us consumers. If a critical system like autopilot behaviour during trimming wasn't accurate it wouldn't have been good enough for pilot training. With practice it's possible to be minimised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
In order to provide the most realistic experience of flying the Ka-50, Kamov has supplied us with a host of information not available to the general public. Once we had beta versions of the software available for testing, Kamov reviewed the software for accuracy (systems and flight dynamics) and helped us revise the simulation for greater realism.
Military contracts are not a license to print money, as often they are required to be done on a “cost plus” basis, and I can assure you that they are very demanding as the simulation has to be perfect so as not to introduce “negative training”.
My guts agree with Frederf. When I think of this trimming bump and the required "lead-trimming" to counter it, I have a hard time believing the real helicopter was designed like that. In the video of the real heli, we can see some bumps sometimes when the pilot hits the trim, but after watching it again more carefully, I noticed that most of his trim presses have no bumps, so the bumps could have been from the pilot's stick movement... I don't know, it's hard to judge by the video alone, so I don't think the video is conclusive...

But then we have ED's word saying that the system was tested by Kamov themselves for use in the real military simulator for training real pilots, and I have no reason to not believe ED. So I'm very confused. Is it possible that the version used by the real pilots is a bit different than the commercial version?

My humble suspicion is that, in the real heli, there would be a slight delay between the press of the trim and the deactivation of the autopilot. This would allow perfect "tap-trimming" or "click-trimming" without any bumps. But how could I know...
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
But how could I know...
Also depends a lot on your equipment you use. From the outset we are at a disadvantage insofar as our controllers are concerned due to the obvious shortened throw, amongst other things. Then again it depends on the particular controller used.

The list goes on.

Personally the only way I can fly the shark is with a Cougar, modded with the UberIINxt. Smooth flight guaranteed. Anything else (Warthog etc etc) and I'm useless.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
Hey,

I'm learning the Ka-50 and, man, what a pleasant aircraft to fly... so smooth! I want to get proficient in controlling it in all different modes: autopilot on, fight director on autopilot off.

Been reading a lot about the trim lately, as well as watching Youtube videos and experimenting with it. I now understand how the Ka-50 trim works, and the question I have is related to using the trim with autopilot ON and flight director OFF, and is independent of whether you use an FFB joystick, conventional joystick or joystick without springs and FFB (I use conventional stick with springs, btw).

Here's the deal: you have autopilot ON and flight director OFF, you move your joystick to a new position, (let's say slightly FWD), stabilize it and tap the trim button. In a time span of a few milliseconds, the following sequence of events happen, as I understand (please tell me if I understand something wrong):

1) upon pressing the trim button, autopilot stabilization gets turned off;

2) without autopilot, your FWD input gets amplified, even though you're still holding the stick at the same place and even though it's during only a few milliseconds;

3) upon releasing the trim button, the new amplified input gets saved and fixed by the flight control system, and autopilot gets re-engaged holding this new amplified input;

4) aircraft pitches down noticeably instead of holding the pitch you originally intended when you pressed the trim button.

Now I'm able to work around that by moving the stick while I keep the trim button depressed, and releasing the button when the aircraft is pointing where I want. But as I read the forums I see that many people trim by simply tapping the trim button. Doesn't it bump your aircraft slightly out of position when you do that? How exactly do you trim by tapping without getting this effect?

Thanks for your input!


Hi PeaceSells,
you are starting to identify some fundamental points with the DCS KA-50 and how you move forward from this position is critical to how you view the KA-50.


To a lot of DCS users the KA-50 is an automaton, a blind machine that needs directional input and is fundamentally an uninteresting machine that allows its pilot to relax to the point of boredom.
To a few DCS users the Automaton is the back up that is utilized at critical points of engagement, it simply backs up the skill of the pilot whenever required.


when you search high and low in these forums you will realise that there are two school of thoughts.
1) KA-50 is boring or at least adept at its job.
2) KA-50 is the most exciting, responsive and deadly attack chopper ever.


How you view the Automatons will decide whether you are 1 or 2.


I am a single click trimmer.

Last edited by Rogue Trooper; 11-03-2017 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:19 AM   #29
Frederf
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It has nothing to do with stick equipment. I've seen a skematic for the control system and the AP gets its modifier in line after the stick placement. The control surfaces are moving without a change in stick position. They still happen in FFB-mode where you trim at constant joystick deflection (i.e. constant virtual cockpit stick position).

The upsets are due to the AP hold dumping its non-zero input suddenly on trim event. One reason why the DCS upsets are so large is that as you apply stick force against the artificial device the AP hold is adding in contrary input from its authority reserve to maintain the capture attitude. Thus when you finally set up a new attitude and trim it's likely that one or more channels are saturated and this is a huge dump of input on trim.

It's almost like the microswitches aren't modeled that sense pilot stick input and stop the AP channel from providing contrary input. By setting the X/Y saturation to 10 you can put yourself on par with the AP's ultimate authority.

What's weird is that the bank channel fights you, if you add +5 it adds -5 and you go nowhere. But the pitch channel is different, not countering small changes in stick Y. Rudder seems similar to Y.

DCS's lack of channel-freezing microswitch means that every time you trim you're probably dumping saturated AP input instead of a much smaller input so the upsets are as big as they can be. I'm also guessing the input dump is happening in 0.00s while the real system has a finite centering time.

I looked in FMOptions.lua and it's more clear that the system is being modeled as a PID controller with 80% gain in bank and 25% gain in pitch (-15% rudder?) which explains why it seems like the AP is persistent in bank but free in pitch.

Crank all the K values to 1 and the helicopter is really sticky in attitude.

I take back the HUD comment. The prototype HUD layout with the pitch ladder parallel to the horizon I really like better. The green wire ADI is pretty dumb but if that's what Kamov did then that's what Kamov did.

Program in the microswitch channel-freezing behavior along with a longer time scale on channel recentering and these channel zeroing upsets would be much much smaller and less abrupt.
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:16 AM   #30
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I have a MSFF2 and use the "hold trim" method... I prefer to disable completely the autopilot and fly only in manual, what I miss is a parameter in the configuration of the force feedback where you can set the damping effect when the trim is pressed so the stick will still have some resistance
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