For those who trim by tapping the trim button - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-31-2017, 10:10 PM   #11
Penshoon
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Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
hmm, it seems I have to practice more with this clicking method.
Good thing it's fun helicopter to practice in!
Try out Holbeach's mountain slalom mission in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=167089 It's a nice course for practice in any helicopter module with hard turns, elevation changes and low power lines to squeeze under as fast as you can.


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Originally Posted by cordite View Post
I thought force trim was unnecessary with dedicated heli controls. I'm still not clear on why it would be needed.
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Originally Posted by Holton181 View Post
"unnecessary" might be the wrong word. It's about springs and breaks holding the controls in place but in the same time causing uncomfortable forces for the pilot to fight against, so you need to be able to disable them when needed. Many real life helicopters do have it.
Ordinary joysticks with springs also benefit from it for the same reason.
But dedicated helicopter simulation controllers in general don't have any means to keep them in place, and often not possible (or at least difficult) to balance in center position. So you can't really take advantage of triming in that respect. But it is still usable to get the cyclic in a more comfortable position for your hand.
It totally depends on the helicopters designer but in general in light and early made helicopters you wont find force trim systems and many pilots dislike them in these air frames if they are installed due to interfering with small balancing movements on the cyclic.
Bigger and more modern ones do mostly fly with a force trim system on all the time with some type of SAS/autopilot. With a force gradient on the controls they can be designed with a lot more advanced autopilot systems like on the ka-50 that makes hands off flying possible.

There are some sim equipment manufacturers do real trim in dedicated heli sim cyclics like this but I have no idea where you can buy or how much it would cost...

Last edited by Penshoon; 10-31-2017 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 01:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penshoon View Post
Good thing it's fun helicopter to practice in!
Try out Holbeach's mountain slalom mission in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=167089 It's a nice course for practice in any helicopter module with hard turns, elevation changes and low power lines to squeeze under as fast as you can.
Yes it is! Cool flying btw, I saw that video from you (and the Huey one too) many months ago!

Question: what's that knocking sound in the video? Is that you clicking the trim button?

EDIT: Never mind, I just saw the answer in the Youtube comments, that's the trim button...

EDIT 2: New question: it makes the sound both when you tap it AND when press and hold? Do you remember if the sound is produced when you 'press' or when you 'release', or both?
Question 3: I see you have autopilot on and flight director off... are you using 'route mode' or 'normal' autopilot?

Thanks for your input!!
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Last edited by PeaceSells; 11-01-2017 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
Yes it is! Cool flying btw, I saw that video from you (and the Huey one too) many months ago!

Question: what's that knocking sound in the video? Is that you clicking the trim button?

EDIT: Never mind, I just saw the answer in the Youtube comments, that's the trim button...

EDIT 2: New question: it makes the sound both when you tap it AND when press and hold? Do you remember if the sound is produced when you 'press' or when you 'release', or both?
Question 3: I see you have autopilot on and flight director off... are you using 'route mode' or 'normal' autopilot?

Thanks for your input!!
Yeah its the trim button, it makes a click both when you first depress it and then when you release it, there is a tiny sound difference between them. I believe first click in the video is from pressing trim reset button though. Like 90% of the video I'm holding down the trim button to get FD controls behaviour.
Normal autopilot is on, no route mode.
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
But as I read the forums I see that many people trim by simply tapping the trim button. Doesn't it bump your aircraft slightly out of position when you do that? How exactly do you trim by tapping without getting this effect?
Here's a donkeys-years old vid I made shortly after release. The point however remains the same - do whatever feels naturally to you. Both methods work - you just need to find the one that works for you

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Old 11-01-2017, 07:18 PM   #15
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I do most trimming including course corrections with flight director on. That way the heli isn't trying to fight me while i reorient. So, FD on, reorient, click trimmer, FD off. I dont' like click and hold method because i've found that sometimes the trimmer button will release if I'm not holding it tightly enough, and on my x-55 hotas my hand does tend to slip as I'm moving the stick around.

What really blew my mind about the trimming and autopilot system in the ka50, is that flight director off is also autopilot. It will not only remember the trim but also the heading and will fight to reorient to that heading if you move the stick. What the cyclic/collective display (if you're using it - right ctrl + enter to toggle) shows as the A is the route following autopilot. And by the way it follows your PVI waypoints, not your Abris waypoints - they aren't linked!!! *mindblown gif*
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:03 PM   #16
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I have to conclude that PeaceSells is right. You cannot fly the Ka-50 with the normal autopilot channels without an upset at every trim button press. Whatever input the channel hold was holding is removed at this time and there is an upset in the helicopter.

All you can do is live with it and minimize them by keeping the channel hold input closer to 0% than its 20% limit. Trim early and trim often.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:09 PM   #17
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Here's a vid - listen closely for the trim inputs:

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Old 11-01-2017, 09:02 PM   #18
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I tested the click method earlier tonight, both with my FFB and my no-spring-no-FFB, with FD off and pitch and bank AP on, and with both heading AP on and off.

I do believe I actually got a grip on the technique now. As others have said, trim often and lead with triming, i.e. start trimming before attitude corrections and the initial jump of the nose is minimized. I found ridiculous amount of trimming was the key (much more than in the above IRL video).
At every click, the nose will jump, yes. But do a quick but small correction in the opposite direction (up/down, left/right) and click again. A small jump by the nose, quick and fast correction, click. Repeat, repeat, repeat!
Eventually the stick and AP will agree, and the nose no longer jump. You are in perfect trim. Works also in turns. Works for me in all above mentioned configurations. Needs some training to get used to.

Personally I like the press'n'hold better, more relaxed, but was curious about the "without spring and FFB" mode (with friction so I can let go of the stick without balance it in center position) which seems to me not realy work that well with the press'n'hold method (nose make unpredictable jumps at release)
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 159th_Viper View Post
Here's a vid - listen closely for the trim inputs:

Thanks for posting that, inspired me to do a similar flight right away.
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penshoon View Post
Yeah its the trim button, it makes a click both when you first depress it and then when you release it
I just noticed that I can hear the clicks too when I fly. Why? Because it's in the game!! *major facepalm* lol

Thanks for answering though!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 159th_Viper View Post
Here's a donkeys-years old vid I made shortly after release. The point however remains the same - do whatever feels naturally to you. Both methods work - you just need to find the one that works for you

Nice flying! I can see you are "lead trimming" as Holton said. Before I started the thread, I suspected this would be the way to do click-trimming efficiently, but I wasn't sure because it seemed kinda weird and un-intuitive to me. It's good to see that there are people that actually do this, thank for the demonstration!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 159th_Viper View Post
Here's a vid - listen closely for the trim inputs:

Before I started the thread, I was wondering if the real Ka-50 would also have this "bump" when click-trimming. I suspected that, in the real one, you'd have to actually hold the trim button to disable the autopilot's counter-actions, so you could click-trim without having to "lead-trim". Watching the video, I can see that there seems to be some bumping indeed when he clicks, but not always. So I'm still not sure. This is a great curiosity of mine.
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