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what's up with the rudder


Vatikus

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On Spit, I can yank full deflection w/o any speed limit.

 

That's because it hasn't been implemented yet and is confirmed to be on the "do to" list. Not a fair comparison then :).

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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are you trying aerobatics?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Yes, I guess it is. But honestly, I've never noticed it - why and when would you need full deflection after liftoff anyway?

What kind of bizzare question :) ...

A: to have a realistic simulation of the plane and to be able to perform maneuvers using yaw component which are currently impossible to do since rudder is ineffective.

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+1 Furthermore is wasn't uncommon to apply a lot of rudder in dogfighting with the enemy on your tail to make aiming more difficult by masking the actual flight path.

As aileron and elevator (should) become noticable heavy only at very high speed I doubt that it should be different concerning rudder.

The Flight Replicas Bf109K for FSX simulates all this very realistic.

 

Indeed, I had that one, and really liked it.

 

Even ground handling in that add-on is probably the best I found regarding models of the Bf 109 in various sims...

 

But that's not really a surprise - Bernt Stolle is a REFERENCE in fdms for FSX...

 

The only aspect that was a bit different from how I see it implemented in other sims is the auto prop pitch controller ... ( don't recall the correct German designation ... one of those typical longish German words... )


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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What kind of bizzare question :) ...

A: to have a realistic simulation of the plane and to be able to perform maneuvers using yaw component which are currently impossible to do since rudder is ineffective.

 

It's a "bizarre" question from me, because of bizarre in my opinion issue noted by you. IF it is a noticeable issue at all, that was my point. There's literally no situation either during takeoff or landing when one would need full deflection above 160 km/h, unless someone experiments with extreme crosswind landings in non-realistic conditions. We don't even need 100% to initiate a spin or do a sideslip approach, or perform a hammerhead.

 

I've been flying 109 since February '15, not all that much, but still, I learned about beginning of force cut-off at 160 only now as you started the thread. It's just not something noticeable, especially when we're still above ~75% of deflection range at 220-230 and start loosing rudder big time (60% of deflection) only above 300.

 

Just out of curiosity, I checked the other warbirds which have rudder forces implemented and for Mustang the limitation gradient at low speeds is pretty much the same as in 109, while for 190 it's about 10 km/h higher on average. I guess we can expect similar values in Spit when it gets its rudder forces modelled as well.

 

Now, I don't know how accurately or not the "legs strength" of out virtual pilot in DCS is simulated, maybe the minimum treshold of 160 is a bit too low indeed, but 109 is just not much different in that aspect than other DCS warbirds and they're all still fully controllable in typical flight and aerobatics situations.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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If it is wrong, it should be corrected, whether or not it is noticeable by the average pilot. How noticeable an error is should not be a factor in considering whether or not to fix it.

 

However, is there actual evidence that the behavior is incorrect? From this thread alone, I'm not seeing it. 160 KPH does seem rather low to me, but there may be factors that you & I are overlooking.


Edited by Echo38
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And there has been no measurement of how much is missing from "full deflection" at low speeds

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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Actually,

Jump to min 6:37.

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Was that the one that EagDyn specifically fixed after the interview, because of his input? Somewhere, they mentioned that they fixed a problem that he talked about. Don't remember where or which.

 

It does look to me as though something's wrong, if the the sim pilot is unable to obtain full rudder deflection at greater than 160 KPH.

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In the end, we can "feel" anything we want, but if we can't provide developers info on the rudder force gradient for the aforementioned planes, or other planes with similar empennage geometry, the thread will go nowhere.

 

Not that Yo-Yo got the rudder forces out of the hat anyway. He must've based them on something for his flight models, but I don't remember them being mentioned anywhere on the forum (I think I recall him posting the virtual pilot "strength" limits for the stick in one of 109 or Spit threads, but I don't think similar info was posted for the rudder).


Edited by Art-J

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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was it "Luftschraubenblattanstellwinkel" ?

 

:megalol:

 

propblade-pitch :)

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Is the prop's airstream at full throttle not just as intense as any airstream that could possibly ever flow across the rudder in level flight, driven by that prop ?

 

I can hardly imagine that Messerschmitt or Daimler Benz were able to cheat physics and develop a prop with an efficiency >1.

 

In other words, with a prop test run, airplane tied down, you should see up to which throttle setting you can apply full deflection of the tail stabilizers.

 

Does this approach make sense ?

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  • 3 months later...

Don´t forget the hyphen. We are crazy with word creations but not complete maniac.:D:hehe::prop:

For the correct orthography you can refer at the "duden".

https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/bindestrich

You have to separate long words with one or more "Bindestrich/e" (hyphen).

Or you get huge words like Luftschraubenblattanstellwinkeleinstellgerät =>(better)Luftschraubenblatt-Anstellwinkel-Einstellgerät.

 

To read more about Luftschrauben-Anlagen, try this scan of a german manual from april 1943.

It´s complete in german.:smilewink: Have a look to page 20 picture 10 (Anbau von Nabe und Regler) or page 23 picture 11 (Bedienanlage).

There you can find a regulator (Regler).

 

Zweiflüglige Argus Verstell-Luftschrauben-Anlage mit hydraulischer Regelung.

Ausgabe April 1943

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Motoren/Argus/Verstell%20Luftschrauben%20Anlage%20Argus/Verstell%20Luftschrauben%20Anlage%20Argus.pdf

 

 

This website is a wonderful source of scanned manuals or original german cockpit instruments.

German ww2 aircraft ammunitions and weapons.

Also allied scanned documents, P51 Pilot Manual or BIF Bombardier Information File (251Pages) ect. Very cool.

I had a lot of fun with this website because i like and trust the original manuals.:thumbup:


Edited by Ovis

 

 

 

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Ok that was new to me. But you are absolutely right it gets down right ugly otherwise.

 

There are many things other languages do better but when it comes to technics imo German is the king of nouns.

 

The advantage is that there can be no ambiguity about what the word means. The disadvantage is that human semantics often turns out so complex that you need 4, 6 or even 8 single words. But that's no longer the fault of the German language imo.

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