Questions regarding F-14 features. - Page 3 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2019, 10:45 PM   #21
Max1mus
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunaticfringe View Post
Your contention is specifically anecdotal, especially where it concerns what goes into the damage calculation. You listed a pair of missiles that apparently have a hard time taking it out 1:1 versus a third you say has high reliability at it. Just based on warhead weight one can see an immediate difference and a basic reason for such a dynamic.

That said, one would certainly hope there are more dynamics at play than raw warhead. Type of warhead, kinetic energy at the time of detonation or impact, distance of detonation proximity- all of these aspects (and more) should be factored, as should the size of the aircraft itself; oft mentioned is 160664- which had over four thousand pounds of T-34C Mentor, fuel, and deceased crew wrapped around its starboard wing in a midair and was able to RTB, was repaired, and returned to service.

These aren't toys, and can take damage. Make a real case in test- and don't call BS just because she doesn't simply detonate- that's a fuel state function. Cascading failures are more common than not when dealing with larger aircraft.
We have tested it over and over again. You can reliably, i would say over 75% of the time still continue flying after an AIM-120 hit. In some cases it would still have working engines, merge and kill the launching aircraft after 2 AIM-120 hits. In 0% of cases did the pilot die immedeatly on impact.

There can surely be a middle ground between fc3 "dead on the spot" and heatblur "Working engines after multiple hits by a large BVR missile". Also, wouldnt in some cases the aircraft completely desintegrate after a hit when the fuel department is set on fire? The "fireball" can be seen in combat footage and has been reported on some incidents with MiG-21/25. Also happens to the F-14 in 0% of the cases with the named missiles.
Max1mus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2019, 11:05 PM   #22
lunaticfringe
Senior Member
 
lunaticfringe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,106
Default

The fireball is shown on the MiG-21F-13 because it was about as structurally rigid under fire as a roll of aluminum foil and was pressed for gas as soon as it passed the outer marker, and those tanks weren't self-dealing. The higher the fuel state, the lower the probability of detonation because there's less air in the internal tanks.

Again- it's situational. Without data regarding the circumstances its anecdotal.

If you have actual test data showing consistent launch ranges, speeds, and resulting end speeds at the point of detonation/impact, show them. I'd be interested to see them.
lunaticfringe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2019, 02:15 AM   #23
IronMike
3rd Party Developer
 
IronMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Austria
Posts: 903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max1mus View Post
Maybe the on/off lock break only works with jester?

Also, how can you say your damage model is realistic when it is not for the majority of the missiles? Whats the measurement, if not the amount of damage caused by the existing missiles in the sim?
DCS hands us a damage state for areas of the airframe and based on that we decide what happens to systems in that area - in these particular system failures we believe that we are fairly in depth and accurate (for example would shrapnel cut rather fuel or oil or hydraulics here, etc). we'll take a second look at the airframe though, we do agree that an aim9 and an aim120 (even proximity hit), should be a kill "95-99%" of the time.
__________________
Heatblur Simulations

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

http://www.heatblur.com/

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/
IronMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 12:37 PM   #24
draconus
Senior Member
 
draconus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max1mus View Post
Also, wouldnt in some cases the aircraft completely desintegrate after a hit when the fuel department is set on fire?
You know that jet fuel is not flamable unless heated or vaporized?
Also why would you expect the aircraft to blow up when it is hit by shrapnel/rod warhead type?
__________________
G4560/16GB/GTX970/SSD, 22"FullHD, T16000M HOTAS, customTiR
NTTR, FC3, F-14B
draconus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 10:48 PM   #25
[de].Impact
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by draconus View Post
You know that jet fuel is not flamable unless heated or vaporized?
Also why would you expect the aircraft to blow up when it is hit by shrapnel/rod warhead type?
Heres a quote by the pilot that fired the first Aim-120 shot and killed a Mig-25 Foxbat (a slighty heavier aircraft than the F-14). He described the moment of missile impact:

“I saw three separate detonations, the nose and left wing broke instantly, and the tail section continued into the main body of the jet, and finally one huge fireball.”
https://fighterjetsworld.com/air/fir...-amraam/13095/


Yes. Missiles kill aircraft.
__________________

TAW_Impact
[de].Impact is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 11:13 PM   #26
lunaticfringe
Senior Member
 
lunaticfringe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,106
Default

You ever look at the structural load limitations of a MiG-25 versus an actual fighter designed to turn? The Foxbat was empty and gross a higher weight than the Tomcat. The Tomcat, however, was by design capable of taking more than *double* the MiG-25s ultimate load factor. It is a substantially stronger aircraft all around.

Missiles kill aircraft. They kill them more reliably when the target isn't designed for anything over 5G and take a direct impact.
lunaticfringe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 08:12 AM   #27
draconus
Senior Member
 
draconus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [de].Impact View Post
Yes. Missiles kill aircraft.
It's not binary and RL shows it. Depending on target aircraft, warhead and distance of detonation (and pure luck of course) you can have nothing, some damage or total disintegration and fireballs (that one you like the most).

Also missiles aren't suppose to direct hit an aircraft because:

- it's almost impossible due to speeds involved and sensors performance

- warhead detonation power is far more effective than kinematicly making a hole in the structure

- it's destruction power is not highest at the closest but a little further.
__________________
G4560/16GB/GTX970/SSD, 22"FullHD, T16000M HOTAS, customTiR
NTTR, FC3, F-14B
draconus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 09:40 AM   #28
Noctrach
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 25
Default

It's a DCS difference in that players don't generally consider a "mission kill" sufficient (on either side). Real life pilots generally won't turn a badly wounded bird back into the fight to get a sneaky AIM-9 off at the risk of being utterly fireballed and never getting home again. Vice versa, nobody wants to be a killer... so if a hostile jet turns and runs, that's it, job well done. DCS pilots will chase that to hell and back for a kill credit.

Meanwhile modern missiles do most of their damage through fragmentation, piercing the jets internal systems with shrapnel in a million places, while the blast rips off the vulnerable control surfaces. In that sense I'd say the Tomcat has pretty believable damage modeling, though it could really do with better visual feedback.

Personally I feel control surface damage could really benefit from some looking at though. So far I've mostly lost jets due to hydraulic failures, with most of the softer bits still very much operational otherwise.
Noctrach is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:50 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.