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What is the Dora's purpose ?


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I absolutely love the Dora to just fly around in, but like the FW-190A8 it doesn't seem to have any other role in DCS.

 

 

It's horribly outmatched in multiplayer. I keep hearing about people who have success as long as they fly it as an ambush\energy fighter, but never see any hard evidence of that. The "amazing" roll rate is handy if you want to amuse your opponent while he's chasing you down to kill you, or if you want to put on an airshow, but thats about it.

 

In single player you have the benefit of dot labels so you can actually see your opponents in time to set up an attack, but then the AI have UFO flight models and it's impossible to ambush them anyway. Try one of the D9 instant action missions sometime. There is nothing you can do versus the Mustang.

 

 

That leaves bomber interception, but with the sniper abilities of AI gunners it's suicide at the moment. The attrition rate for FW pilots flying versus heavy bomber formations in '44 and '45 was huge, but if it went along DCS lines the Luftwaffe would have ceased to exist in 24 hours.

 

 

Jabo maybe ? it can do that, as long as no enemy planes see you.

 

Is the FW-190's only role to provide targets for people who fly the allied planes ? Is that why they exist at all ?

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In your title, did you mean the Dora or Anton

 

Do some reading.

It was a multi role aircraft.

- Considered better than a Spit mkV

- Good for Bomber interception. Have you tried toning down the skill of the bomber gunners%?

- Good for CAS and strike

Kind of equivalent of the F18 for the Luftwaffe.

 

If you’re struggling, use different tactics

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I agree with Extranajero as far as MP is concerned. I never see the bandits before they start shooting at me, and that's at least in part a problem with the grapgics rendering (btehe other part being my old eyes). In SP however, with labels ON, I win more often than I lose. It took me a lot of time to get there though.

As Mr sukebe says, review your tactics!

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In your title, did you mean the Dora or Anton

 

Do some reading.

It was a multi role aircraft.

- Considered better than a Spit mkV

- Good for Bomber interception. Have you tried toning down the skill of the bomber gunners%?

- Good for CAS and strike

Kind of equivalent of the F18 for the Luftwaffe.

 

If you’re struggling, use different tactics

 

I mainly meant the D9, but what I wrote was also aimed at the A8 to a large degree

 

I've read plenty of technical books and pilots impressions of WW-2 fighters - I know the reasoning behind the design of the FW190's and their capabilities on paper. I'm referring to the DCS FW190 here :)

 

I didn't know you could alter the AI gunners skills. Thanks :)

 

A multi-role aircraft is meant to be able to defend itself, the DCS FW190 can't

 

I disagree about the comparison with the F-18 - the FW190's are simple to operate and beautiful, unlike the F-18 :D

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you're bringing in a lot of questionable assumptions in to this and it's why you're getting dunked

 

Try one of the D9 instant action missions sometime. There is nothing you can do versus the Mustang.
this is a trivial fight

the biggest mistake people make with these up-engined brutes is over-energizing

guys floor the pedal on a top fuel funny car and then wonder why they fly off the track on the first turn

 

A multi-role aircraft is meant to be able to defend itself, the DCS FW190 can't
you're bringing a post-1990 meme to 1944
Edited by probad
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you're bringing in a lot of questionable assumptions in to this and it's why you're getting dunked

 

 

Why I'm getting what ? what's 'dunked' ?

 

Do you fly the Dora in MP with any success at all - got any tips for me ?

 

What is questionable about my comments, tell me ?

 

I love the Dora, and it is what it is in DCS - nothing I can say will make it change.

I am asking what role it can perform. So far we have a Jabo and maybe a bomber destroyer in SP if I build my own mission with the AI gunners turned down.


Edited by Extranajero

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the biggest mistake people make with these up-engined brutes is over-energizing

guys floor the pedal on a top fuel funny car and then wonder why they fly off the track on the first turn

 

 

I don't have a clue what you are talking about when you say over energizing. Don't bother to explain though.

 

I'm not American, but I do know that Top Fuel dragsters aren't intended to go round corners at all. A bit like the Dora :D

 

You are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts, because it just isn't worth the effort.

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You have to remember that tactics are what make you successful in a dogfight. The strategy here is to keep your energy higher than the opponents and you accomplish this by booming and zooming them. Dora is good at keeping the energy when doing steep climbs followed by steep dives. You must follow the energy fighter doctrine. She also turns well at high speeds so use that for high deflection shooting. Do not follow your target in steep turns or you'll find yourself in disadvantage soon. The hardest time for Dora is against the P51 because they share the same characteristics with minor differences. So against it, you have to use the role rate and the better climbing ability to seize the advantage and win the fight. The most important here to remember is to always fly coordinated with it, always.

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You have to remember that tactics are what make you successful in a dogfight.

 

No argument about that. I suppose the Dora has an advantage in that the engine doesn't need the same level of management as the P-51

I can't remember blowing up the Dora's engine in the heat of the moment and never suffer any issues with the auto cooling flaps.

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Interesting debate. When someone disagrees, you ignore them?

 

If anyone disagrees with me from a position of having absolutely no idea of what they are talking about then I'll ignore them, yes.

 

I'll take on board comments from anyone who actually has experience with the Dora, no matter if they agree with me or not.

 

I'm going to ignore you now too, because what have you brought to the debate apart from a bit of mild sarcasm ?

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#1 In the real war, pilots didn't yolo off by themselves.

 

#2 In the real war, combat did not revolve around kill whoring and 1v1s. The Luftwaffe's primary concern was denting the bomber swarms wrecking their cities and industry. The 190 was a modernised fighter over the 109, which, while updated throughout the war, was designed in the early-mid 1930s. The 190 brought a massive increase in firepower and durability, with similar performance. The D9 was a late war version optimised for high altitude flight (intercepting bombers) where the Anton variants had poor performance.

 

#3 There is more to ''dogfighting'' than how hard you pull the stick. As long as performance is in the same league, a little bit of speed, maneuevrability, etc, isn't war winning. The pilot, his situational awareness, and judgment is the deciding factor.

 

#4 Nothing involving the AI has anything to do with online. They have a different flightmodel, and consistent behavior. Online, the opponent flies by the same rules as you and their skill ranges from grossly incompetent to unerring. The randomness and unpredictability of engagements means who wins or loses is going to be a lot more circumstantial in the first place. The more alert you are, the less you succumb to tunnel vision, and the more you fly to your aircraft's design, the better you'll do. In general, if you're below 25,000ft and flying alone, the odds are against you already.

 

 

 

When you start out, don't just meander toward the frontlines randomly. When you takeoff, have a plan, a destination, and keep your aircraft's performance in mind, then stick to that plan. Don't get distracted chasing cheap kills or unfavorable battle conditions. Yes, that means being patient and not rushing into battle.

 

Do you want many battles that you often lose, or fewer battles you often win? Align behavior accordingly. Successful fighter pilots, ingame and in history, avoid unfavorable fights as much as possible.

 

-edit

Oh, and if you're accustomed to playing with labels as mentioned above that is an active handicap. Went through the same stuff training pilots back in War Thunder. The specks are not magically harder to see with labels turned off, they're still there. People using labels literally are training themselves to look for flashing icons instead of the specks. That's just a fact. It applies to every flight sim, regardless of how good or bad the spotting is.

 

If you use labels, you are training to look for labels. If you DON'T use labels, you're training to look for aircraft. No, it's not easy, but you're establishing a bad habit and reinforcing it if doing that. Again, I went through the same thing with new pilots in War Thunder, which is arcadey and much ''easier'' across the board. Labels are counter productive in EVERY flight sim if you intend to move into online ''sim'' servers that don't use them.

 

Extranajero, can the attitude with people weighing in. You're the nub here, and are asking for input.


Edited by zhukov032186
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#1 In the real war, pilots didn't yolo off by themselves.

 

#2 In the real war, combat did not revolve around kill whoring and 1v1s. The Luftwaffe's primary concern was denting the bomber swarms wrecking their cities and industry. The 190 was a modernised fighter over the 109, which, while updated throughout the war, was designed in the early-mid 1930s. The 190 brought a massive increase in firepower and durability, with similar performance. The D9 was a late war version optimised for high altitude flight (intercepting bombers) where the Anton variants had poor performance.

 

#3 There is more to ''dogfighting'' than how hard you pull the stick. As long as performance is in the same league, a little bit of speed, maneuevrability, etc, isn't war winning. The pilot, his situational awareness, and judgment is the deciding factor.

 

#4 Nothing involving the AI has anything to do with online. They have a different flightmodel, and consistent behavior. Online, the opponent flies by the same rules as you and their skill ranges from grossly incompetent to unerring. The randomness and unpredictability of engagements means who wins or loses is going to be a lot more circumstantial in the first place. The more alert you are, the less you succumb to tunnel vision, and the more you fly to your aircraft's design, the better you'll do. In general, if you're below 25,000ft and flying alone, the odds are against you already.

 

 

 

When you start out, don't just meander toward the frontlines randomly. When you takeoff, have a plan, a destination, and keep your aircraft's performance in mind, then stick to that plan. Don't get distracted chasing cheap kills or unfavorable battle conditions. Yes, that means being patient and not rushing into battle.

 

Do you want many battles that you often lose, or fewer battles you often win? Align behavior accordingly. Successful fighter pilots, ingame and in history, avoid unfavorable fights as much as possible.

 

 

#1 - A few did. They tended to last about as long as I do in MP :D

 

#2 - Can we leave the history and tactics of WW2 combat - and the performance of the various models of FW-190 out of this ? let's just assume I already know this and then we are on the same page.

 

#3 - Yes, I know. I think the best comment I have read about flying the D9 is someone who said he flew it " like it has a crate of eggs in the cockpit " or something like that. I wish I could remember where I'd read it and who it was. I'd like to pick that guys brains.

 

#4 - Kills aren't something I am particularly bothered about, although they are nice. It's a learning experience for me, a way to explore aviation history by taking part in - I don't know what you'd call it - maybe ED's own description of DCS as a sandbox is the best. The issue I am struggling to understand is the variance between the DCS FW190D in my own experience and the historical ones success.

 

 

my edit :-

 

 

No, I'm far from a 'nub' - check out the date I joined this forum - I just rarely bother to post anything. I've been a DCS user since there was only the KA50 and the A-10 and a member here longer than most. I've been interested in military aviation since I was a kid, and flown sims since there were home computers.

The only issue I have with people weighing in are the ones who don't have a clue, i.e. people who are talking about drag racing, or just having a mild pop at me to try and make themselves feel superior.


Edited by Extranajero
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*bows* Dear me, if you know everything what are doing consorting with mere mortals?

 

Adding you to my looooong block list

 

That's good because the irony of being told to 'can the attitude' by possibly the most self important, opinionated and arrogant member of this forum ( I may not post much, but I do read ) was a treat :D

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With the release of the Dora, it was common ED released some intressting Helpfull stuff what you can use to Fly and Dogfight, like Instant Turnrate continious Turn Rate for the varius Warbirds.

But this is not case anymore, why dont know this is not anymore happen, to much Pointless Disscussion on the same thing over and over probably.

 

With the release of the Dora Dogfighting the P-51 was doable at normal Weights, slightly higher Sustained Turnrate at medicore Speeds + Climb Rate but it was requesting higher Skill becauseof the bad accelerating Stalls and low Speed Turn was also Bad. (back then I know only handfull of People that was able of doing so).

This Information is still visible in this Forum as Diagramm, when look out for hard facts and not XY can not do this because i am not able to do so...

 

 

But there lot more that knows only ED or Yoyo, about Induced Drag Prob Effencie so on, so you can not see the hole story what happen...

 

 

But dont know what changed, because this still top "Secret" Policie about Flight Models but everyone is welcome to test out the follow stuff it self:

 

 

By 6% of Fuel in the Dora and 100% Fuel in P-51 will give the same Amount of Wingload, the Dora have around 1.35 Clmax at 15 AOA and the P-51 have around 1.2 clmax at "SUSTAINED" (i know what is comming).

 

Dora Split Flaps are pretty bad compare to P-51 camber Flaps of the P-51, so this will only work against AI.

Not mention the Climb Rate, dont know it right know from FF for this Takeoff Weights but should be significat difference in favour for the Dora.

 

Feel free to Test it, at least I am not able to do something usefull in Dora anymore, absolute struggle (getting old i know)

But Boom&Zoom with the Dora that have the worst Accelerating Stalls and high Wingload, for me it's absolute Boring and counter productive to use the Dora in this manner, that can spitfire and P-51 away more better.

Can see clearly how hopeless the moste People crusing around the Server without scoreing any kills and try to force something. (yes it is fast wow)


Edited by MAD-MM

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The purpose of the Dora? Quite simply to shoot down the enemy, both fighters AND bombers, but I suspect you are aware of that already.

 

You have been around DCS a long time. I am surprised that you have not realised that the aircraft DCS introduces into their "WORLD" do not have specific purposes like how other SIMS or GAMES are created. They are done because they have the interest and resources available to them to create the aircraft as realistically as possible.

 

It is up to us, the customer to give it purpose utilizing the rest of the "Toys in the sandbox". Not all of these toys work well together, but we do what we can to create an enjoyable experience.

 

For the Dora. No, it is not all that capable of a dog fighter. It is an energy fighter and to use it any more than that on a capable enemy is just going to get you shot down.

 

Set up a mission with a group of bombers coming in. Toss in a few AI escorts and then give your side some additional AI and go after the bombers and see how that plays out. Go after enemy AI that are chasing friendly AI or shoot down bombers and you may find a more likeable experience in the Dora. OR team up with other online pilots and work as a team as lone-wolfing it in MP is usually a bad experience no matter what aircraft you are in.

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So I'm not crazy then MAD-MM ? I didn't think so :smilewink:

 

You have been around DCS a long time. I am surprised that you have not realised that the aircraft DCS introduces into their "WORLD" do not have specific purposes like how other SIMS or GAMES are created.

Set up a mission with a group of bombers coming in. Toss in a few AI escorts and then give your side some additional AI and go after the bombers and see how that plays out. Go after enemy AI that are chasing friendly AI or shoot down bombers and you may find a more likeable experience in the Dora. OR team up with other online pilots and work as a team as lone-wolfing it in MP is usually a bad experience no matter what aircraft you are in.

 

I do realise that DCS isn't like that other sim, where everything is more or less balanced, because the focus is on online competitive dogfighting. I prefer the DCS model.

I only know the basics of the mission editor, but that idea of yours sounds great, I'll ask a mate of mine how he uses triggers so I can vary things a little to add interest. Great idea :)

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I absolutely love the Dora to just fly around in, but like the FW-190A8 it doesn't seem to have any other role in DCS.

 

 

High Altitude interception... just as it was designed for.

The Dora should be climbing up to 6000 to 8000m altitude, flying in straight lines and taking on bomber formations in head-on attacks - exactly what it was intended for.

 

 

If there are no aircraft at 6000m to 8000m, then maybe try another server where there are?

 

 

 

Dogfighting 1v1 at low altitudes in the Dora is a death sentence.

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What is the Dora's purpose ?

 

What’s the Dora’s roll? The Dora is a killing machine! Horribly outmatched in Multiplayer? I completely disagree, but I do understand frustration. “Amazingme” posted above giving you some very sound advice. The Dora is a very tough bird to learn to fight in, but it’s very capable.

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Campbell
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Dogfighting 1v1 at low altitudes in the Dora is a death sentence.

 

 

How did you come to this conclusion, apart from your personal Expirience Phil?

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=241608&stc=1&d=1593776896

Turnfight.thumb.gif.b4823cb192ca6b567e3745bb2f8f2429.gif

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Unfortunately the Dora is slower than she was.

That may by behind questions about her capability recently.

 

If you fly at continuous power (1600Hp/3000R.P.M) you reach certain speed, then if you increase power to Take-off, combat and

climb power (1770Hp/3250R.P.M.) you should fly faster, and you did here in DCS in past.

But now here in DCS, you do not, actually you will fly slower, only 3 kph, but no faster.

(if i remeber correctly, the gap was 15-20kph)

 

And the last note, the Dora was capable fly around 600kph with Emergency power, now she does not.

I am able to get from her only slightly above 580kph in exactly the same conditions when i was able to fly with her 600kph...

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Unfortunately the Dora is slower than she was.

That may by behind questions about her capability recently.

 

If you fly at continuous power (1600Hp/3000R.P.M) you reach certain speed, then if you increase power to Take-off, combat and

climb power (1770Hp/3250R.P.M.) you should fly faster, and you did here in DCS in past.

But now here in DCS, you do not, actually you will fly slower, only 3 kph, but no faster.

(if i remeber correctly, the gap was 15-20kph)

 

And the last note, the Dora was capable fly around 600kph with Emergency power, now she does not.

I am able to get from her only slightly above 580kph in exactly the same conditions when i was able to fly with her 600kph...

I got big eyes when I read you post, because not long ago I did some speed tests. I reached ~604km/h.

Now I tried again, and you are right. She lost speed. Attached are two Tacview files. The older one where I could reach 600+km/h at SL, and the one from current OB.

 

 

Bug reported here

 

 

 

Fox

Dora.zip


Edited by iFoxRomeo
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MAD-MM :- those graphs you show - where did you find those ? did you make them yourself using Tacview data ?

Thanks so much for posting them anyway

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