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Wingman recon = cheating?


PeaceSells

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I just noticed that when I send my wingman (AI) to recon ahead it spots hidden targets that a human pilot would just never spot... So I currently don't use wingman recon, otherwise it's just a game of shooting blue squares on the ABRIS...

 

What do you guys think?

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Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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I just noticed that when I send my wingman (AI) to recon ahead it spots hidden targets that a human pilot would just never spot... So I currently don't use wingman recon, otherwise it's just a game of shooting blue squares on the ABRIS...

 

What do you guys think?

 

I assume you tried it in 1.5 where the AI can see through the trees. Maybe you could try it with 2.1 and see if it behaves the same there.

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i think the title should say "wingman recon = unintended advantage"

because thats what it is, a limitation of the gameengine,and not a cheat...

It's not an advantage as the AI can see you the same way, so you are handicapped if you don't use the wingman to recon.

 

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The thing is, you get shot at by that same AI that sees through trees and has instant knowledge about you when you enter their detection range. They'll know where you are, how high you are, speed and course. So that moment you enter their engagement range, wham, the firework start.

 

Why not use your wingman for a piece of that same pie? I do and it does make mission a bit easier but it's not a cheat or god-mode.

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Commodore 64 | MOS6510 | VIC-II | SID6581 | DD 1541 | KCS Power Cartridge | 64Kb | 32Kb external | Arcade Turbo

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I assume you tried it in 1.5 where the AI can see through the trees. Maybe you could try it with 2.1 and see if it behaves the same there.

 

Yes, I'm referring to 1.5. In 2.1 I own Nevada which doesn't have trees that AI (or you) can hide behind. I don't own Normandy...

 

You brought a good point, I'm very curious to know if the trees in Normandy and the new Caucasus will block AI view and missile locks and if they will be collideable.


Edited by PeaceSells

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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i think the title should say "wingman recon = unintended advantage"

because thats what it is, a limitation of the gameengine,and not a cheat...

 

Well, you know... it's only really unintended advantage when you're not aware of the advantage... After you became aware of it, you can't really call it 'unintended', can you...

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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It's not an advantage as the AI can see you the same way, so you are handicapped if you don't use the wingman to recon.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

The thing is, you get shot at by that same AI that sees through trees and has instant knowledge about you when you enter their detection range. They'll know where you are, how high you are, speed and course. So that moment you enter their engagement range, wham, the firework start.

 

Why not use your wingman for a piece of that same pie? I do and it does make mission a bit easier but it's not a cheat or god-mode.

 

But then... where's the immersion?

 

I get the point of the balancing... but is balancing what makes it fun? I mean, tic-tac-toe is balanced, but is it fun?

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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Yes, I'm referring to 1.5. In 2.1 I own Nevada which doesn't have trees that AI (or you) can hide behind. I don't own Normandy...

 

You brought a good point, I'm very curious to know if the trees in Normandy and the new Caucasus block AI view and missile locks and if they are collideable. I mean, Caucasus has A LOT of trees.

 

There are actually areas with trees:

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Well, you know... it's only really unintended advantage when you're not aware of the advantage... After you became aware of it, you can't really call it 'unintended', can you...

Uhm, why not? Maybe I can't quite call it an advantage anymore once everyone can exploit it the same, but AI of any side seeing through foliage still is rather unintended, I'm sure.

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The trees in normandy block line of sight. A quick test in normandy with the MI-8, hovering above the runway ~800m from the vulcan -> nothing, flying towards him -> nothing(not even the turret moves), increasing my altitude so i got above the tree tops and in line of sight and the vulcan shredded me.

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Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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I just noticed that when I send my wingman (AI) to recon ahead it spots hidden targets that a human pilot would just never spot... So I currently don't use wingman recon, otherwise it's just a game of shooting blue squares on the ABRIS...

 

What do you guys think?

 

Probably not exactly the type of feedback you're looking for, but even the best designed singleplayer missions are still very limited in how much immersion they can deliver when compared to multiplayer. And don't get me wrong, there are fantastic missions and campaigns, I've purchased most payware campaigns and never regretted spending that money.

 

But in an MP environment, even if it's purely coop against AI, I tend to get sweaty hands and elevated hart rate because every single time it plays out differently. It's a little like an RPG, but instead of "please don't give me a bad role of the dice", I'm like "don't let me screw this up, and don't let me sound bad on the comms" :D

 

The immersion of the simplest things, like flying a good overhead break or spotting a target and handing it off to your wingman because he's in a better attack position is simply unrivaled IMHO. Let alone acting as JTAC and seeing your planes actually do exactly what you want them to do (huuuuuge thanks to the 132nd for all the wonderful opportunities!). :thumbup:

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There are actually areas with trees:

 

Hmm, I just can't seem to find these dense tree areas, but I do believe they block AI view/locks. Anyway, almost all missions and campaigns that come with BS2 are for Caucasus, so I don't see much point...

 

The trees in normandy block line of sight. A quick test in normandy with the MI-8, hovering above the runway ~800m from the vulcan -> nothing, flying towards him -> nothing(not even the turret moves), increasing my altitude so i got above the tree tops and in line of sight and the vulcan shredded me.

 

Thanks man, that was very good info! It fills me with hope for the future!

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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Probably not exactly the type of feedback you're looking for, but even the best designed singleplayer missions are still very limited in how much immersion they can deliver when compared to multiplayer. And don't get me wrong, there are fantastic missions and campaigns, I've purchased most payware campaigns and never regretted spending that money.

 

But in an MP environment, even if it's purely coop against AI, I tend to get sweaty hands and elevated hart rate because every single time it plays out differently. It's a little like an RPG, but instead of "please don't give me a bad role of the dice", I'm like "don't let me screw this up, and don't let me sound bad on the comms" :D

 

The immersion of the simplest things, like flying a good overhead break or spotting a target and handing it off to your wingman because he's in a better attack position is simply unrivaled IMHO. Let alone acting as JTAC and seeing your planes actually do exactly what you want them to do (huuuuuge thanks to the 132nd for all the wonderful opportunities!). :thumbup:

 

I think you're 100% right. I never played DCS multiplayer, which is funny because the other games I play I only play multiplayer exclusively. I guess I still lack confidence in DCS to go online. Your post might be what it takes to make me start with it, thanks a lot for your insight. I know what you're talking about... multiplayer, if done right, is the real sim experience.

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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Thanks man, that was very good info! It fills me with hope for the future!

 

I know it's the MI-8 again but i havn't flown the KA-50 for a while, shame on me. Nothing bad happens until picture 4 ;)

 

Edit: You should open a new thread: using trees = cheating? :megalol: You can hide behind them and shoot your rocket salvos through them but the ai does not. But if you are visible through a wide enough gap in the tree line it will kill you merciless.


Edited by unknown

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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^^Hey man, nice demonstration again!

 

You should open a new thread: using trees = cheating? :megalol: You can hide behind them and shoot your rocket salvos through them but the ai does not. But if you are visible through a wide enough gap in the tree line it will kill you merciless.

 

I guess it makes sense that they don't try to shoot you through the foliage for as long as they don't know you're there. If you know where they are (which I guess you did, because you created the mission, right?), then you should probably have the advantage in spotting them through the foliage and firing... Plus I guess heli pilots do have the advantage of visibility in relation to the crew inside armored vehicles, in general. I don't know about AA vehicles though...

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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^^Hey man, nice demonstration again!

 

 

 

I guess it makes sense that they don't try to shoot you through the foliage for as long as they don't know you're there. If you know where they are (which I guess you did, because you created the mission, right?), then you should probably have the advantage in spotting them through the foliage and firing... Plus I guess heli pilots do have the advantage of visibility in relation to the crew inside armored vehicles, in general. I don't know about AA vehicles though...

 

Yes it was just a quick "mission", place MI-8 and vulcan and try to sneek up on him. In pic1 he doesn't know that i am there because his gun is not pointing at me, he was set to alarm state red and weapons free in ME. On pic2 and 3 he knows that i am behind the tree line, his gun is pointing at me but he doesn't shoot. I could fire my rockets throught the tree line, don't know if some exploded at the tree trunk but i got him. And he got me one time sneeking up on him because he could fire through a gap of the tree line. And the trees aren't healthy for your heli either. ;)

 

Normandy is a really nice map for heli pilots. :thumbup: ED

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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^^ Hmm, if he was aware of you there in pics 2 and 3, than I guess that IRL he would've cut you in half right there, trees in the way or not. So maybe 2.1 is the extreme opposite - trees give helis an unrealistic advantage? Hmm, I want to experiment with this myself too... I need to find those trees in Nevada, cause I don't own Normandy.

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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I think you're 100% right. I never played DCS multiplayer, which is funny because the other games I play I only play multiplayer exclusively. I guess I still lack confidence in DCS to go online. Your post might be what it takes to make me start with it, thanks a lot for your insight. I know what you're talking about... multiplayer, if done right, is the real sim experience.

 

It certainly is. :)

 

I used to be a lone wolf, with little MP experience, but then a couple of opportunities came along to meet people I knew from this forum on TS, and things took off from there.

 

Of course you could always join one of the servers that run all the time. I've had nothing but positive experiences there. For starters, Aerobatics Online is always great coz all you have to do is fly around and make it look good, with no weapon release whatsoever. Just don't worry when half a dozen aircraft start forming up on your wing for some nice formation flying. :thumbup:

 

I need to find those trees in Nevada, cause I don't own Normandy.

 

Have a look around Mount Charleston, a couple miles west of Las Vegas, there are some nice wooded areas right there.

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I think you're 100% right. I never played DCS multiplayer, which is funny because the other games I play I only play multiplayer exclusively. I guess I still lack confidence in DCS to go online. Your post might be what it takes to make me start with it, thanks a lot for your insight. I know what you're talking about... multiplayer, if done right, is the real sim experience.

 

Hop on over to the 132nd website / server and read through the documents and folders. We can get you on the TS server and you can observe as an external on one of our trainings and see/hear if this is to your liking.

 

Yurgon tried, it was hook, line and sinker and now he's onboard regularly :)

 

http://132virtualwing.org/ or shoot me a PM. We're also on Discord if you want to say hi.

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Commodore 64 | MOS6510 | VIC-II | SID6581 | DD 1541 | KCS Power Cartridge | 64Kb | 32Kb external | Arcade Turbo

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