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A proposal for the usage role and business model of the CE2


MikeMikeJuliet

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Alot of aerobatic teams use mods most of the time anyway which are stated private. Noone likes flames, It may even be better if 2.5 was released first then the eagle, Because Caucasus is not exactly pretty in 1.5.8, Having the new graphics engine then the eagle would help because dcs would look prettier on its new terrain map? 2.5 engine would attract new customers even more i guess.

 

This is very true. Then again, we are talking about an aerobatics aircraft here - not bringing a 747 into DCS.

 

 

I'm not saying DCS should be riddled with all dem civil aircraft... I'm saying that I'm trying not to dismiss one when one is introduced. In my country, Military aircraft exist in the same airspace and aerodromes as civilian ones.

 

There new terrain engine would be awsome in open world and could open up many possibilities for developers to be attracted to eagle dynamics to

 

Combat tho is what the 3rd parties and ED do best.


Edited by Coxy_99
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Having the new graphics engine then the eagle would help because dcs would look prettier on its new terrain map? 2.5 engine would attract new customers even more i guess.

 

 

There new terrain engine would be awsome in open world and could open up many possibilities for developers to be attracted to eagle dynamics to

 

Combat tho is what the 3rd parties and ED do best.

 

A new terrain engine require years of development, and actually EDGE has only 2 years live and has very "green" to a open terrain, that is only applicable if EDGE evolve to them. Need wait to 3rd parties get the SDK and start to build maps.

 

And change to other engine has imposible, require a quantity of work similarly to the SC project, literally change the 75-90% of the engine to math with the actual capabilities of EDGE and DCS World project.

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My point still stands. Any armed aircraft requires you to map controls and the start is a hassle. You also need to know how weapon systems work, at least partly. My premise is that here lies an opportunity to get players in, who come here primarily for the awesome flight models, and who have spent their time flying civilian-sims. In said cases I believe the easiest step to take is to come try how DCS handles under a familiar aircraft. If you only fly civ-sims a military aircraft with weapons is not going to feel familiar to you.

 

My point stands too. If you can't/don't want to use weapons you don't have to, just fly any of the aircraft in DCS without them. But the capability is there in case you want to use them. You don't need a special unarmed plane just for this purpose.

 

CE2 is not a familiar aircraft to anyone, especially coming from civ-sims that are dominated by Cessnas, Pipers, Boeings and other buses. Being a stunt aerobatic plane, its flight model will be totally different from what most real pilots have ever experienced. And significantly different from anything else in DCS. Besides, M3 doesn't really have a stellar reputation when it comes to FM development.

 

Anyway how many people are out there who want to experience "awesome DCS flight models" and can't be arsed to at least learn a bit about the aircraft and the systems to map the basic controls?

 

I understand that we're trying hard to find out what to do with this airplane when it inevitably lands in DCS, but this only shows how out of place it is in the current DCS environment. Ultimately, sales will tell if developing this addon was a good decision for M3.

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My point still stands. Any armed aircraft requires you to map controls and the start is a hassle. You also need to know how weapon systems work, at least partly. My premise is that here lies an opportunity to get players in, who come here primarily for the awesome flight models, and who have spent their time flying civilian-sims. In said cases I believe the easiest step to take is to come try how DCS handles under a familiar aircraft. If you only fly civ-sims a military aircraft with weapons is not going to feel familiar to you.

 

Sorry if I missed it, but doesn't the TF-51 provide a similar purpose already?

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Alot of aerobatic teams use mods most of the time anyway which are stated private. Noone likes flames, It may even be better if 2.5 was released first then the eagle, Because Caucasus is not exactly pretty in 1.5.8, Having the new graphics engine then the eagle would help because dcs would look prettier on its new terrain map? 2.5 engine would attract new customers even more i guess.

 

The problem of "ye olde Caucasus" is soon gone if news are to be believed. M3 stated the CE2 would be released some time late Q1 2018, where as ED has stated DCS:W 2.5 to be released "within less than two months".

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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Sorry if I missed it, but doesn't the TF-51 provide a similar purpose already?

 

We do. Thing is, one of the selling points of the CE2 is the multiseat. TF-51, while it has two seats, doesn't work with multiseat MP functionality - at least currently.


Edited by MikeMikeJuliet

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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My point stands too. If you can't/don't want to use weapons you don't have to, just fly any of the aircraft in DCS without them. But the capability is there in case you want to use them. You don't need a special unarmed plane just for this purpose.

 

CE2 is not a familiar aircraft to anyone, especially coming from civ-sims that are dominated by Cessnas, Pipers, Boeings and other buses. Being a stunt aerobatic plane, its flight model will be totally different from what most real pilots have ever experienced. And significantly different from anything else in DCS. Besides, M3 doesn't really have a stellar reputation when it comes to FM development.

 

Anyway how many people are out there who want to experience "awesome DCS flight models" and can't be arsed to at least learn a bit about the aircraft and the systems to map the basic controls?

 

I understand that we're trying hard to find out what to do with this airplane when it inevitably lands in DCS, but this only shows how out of place it is in the current DCS environment. Ultimately, sales will tell if developing this addon was a good decision for M3.

 

You have merit to your arguments, I can't dismiss those.

 

I agree the CE2 is an odd bird in this environment - I hope it turns out to be a good one in it's own right. Indeed if it doesn't sell well it at least shows that this type of unarmed aircraft is not relevant in DCS. I guess all our speculations, suggestions and theses will be answered in 2018.

 

In regards to the CE2 not being familiar to most pilots... In my understanding many, if not all civilian-sims have, at least in the past, come packaged with similar aircraft. Now my intention is not to claim those would behave the same as CE2 in here, be it better or worse - nor that those aircraft would have a huge playerbase. But, they do exist and I can't be the only one who has enjoyed one or two of those back in the day. RedBull AirRace has been known to be somewhat popular in some circles.

 

 

I'm aware that, at least at this point and at this level, we all know CE2 doesn't need to exist in DCS (again, this is context related, in line with your thoughts). But as it is on it's way, I thought to see if something new could be done here to benefit players.

 

In regards to the conversation of "why not just make it free". I know it would be awesome for us. But I highly doubt M3 will be giving this for free. This is why I tried to come up with a suggestion that would still make the money, and give us a little something good as well.

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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I do hope the CE II will have better crash and explosion effects if you fly into an accident,unlike in the MFS/P3D series which have horrible crash effects if you have trouble landing the plane.In DCS,you have the most realistic effects that could draw more people away from the MFS X series for good and compete with X-Plane 11.

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The thing is that even in civilian flight simulators like Xplane or FSX/P3D, those aerobatic hotrods are a terrible niche...

 

I think that is mainly because those sims cannot handle the aerodynamics such an aerobatic plane needs for enjoyable and proper experience. On the other hand, handling complex aerodynamics is DCS's bread and butter and that is why the CE2 fits here way better than in those other sims.

 

Also properly modelled CE2 would probably be too difficult to handle for most sim airliner pilots.

 

Anyway, gutsy move M3 :thumbup:

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I like it :thumbup:

 

Such a sales man MikeMikeJuliet, you just needed to add, that if they eject in game from the plane, they get redirected and land on the website sales page automatically.:D

 

Better than a buy now button popping up after 15 minutes...

 

Plus, these new aircraft for DCS are going to be great as target drones anyway, so you'll be landing on that sales page a lot.:D

 

Can we get an orange livery please..

 

 

.

 

I'm not trying to be a salesman here. Quite the contrary. I hate bad business practices and unethical money grubbing.

 

My point in all of this is that we as a community cannot do anything about CE2 coming to DCS. It is there regardless. And with the assumption that the flightmodel and what little systems it has are done well, I don't see why it shouldn't be put to good use. Military aircraft are my cup of tea, but to actively push the civilian planes out of DCS is just elitism.

 

Was only playing MikeMikeJuliet.:)

 

It's a good idea, I would buy an A2A level Cessna for DCS, I have their Comanche, these aircraft will be fun to fly around in any of the maps, it's understandable building only the smaller civi aircraft, as this suits the small high detail maps.

 

The main reason I mostly fly in DCS is the FM's, system modeling and it just feels more real, even more so for the choppers, this type of aircraft could bring in others from the civi market place to try out the FM modelling in DCS, like I said, the maps are more than big enough for these small light planes to fly in.

 

If the FM is at a good polished level for this type of stunt plane, it will be a winner with the aerobatic crowed. I know DCS is meant to be a combat sim, it's still the best sim to take any plane or chopper for a quick flight, as DCS simulates flying better than any of the other sims, especially at the edge of the flight envelope.

 

EDIT: :D

 

This guy's got some drawing skills:thumbup: it was Posted here

 

gdTBocD.jpg

 

 

 

.


Edited by David OC

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Yet a complete outrage and heated debates in thread after thread over the OPTION to buy and fly a CEII in DCS... let that sink in :doh:

 

I don't see any outrage or heat in this thread. Only civil discussion about what to do with the airplane.

 

So what's your point? You're the only person complaining here.

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Ok. Do you really feel we need to discuss what to do with the CEII? It is an aerobatic plane, so I am pretty sure that it should be used in that fashion ;) what I was trying to get accross is that with all the good things coming, there is little to no benefit of debating CEII's place within DCS and M3s strategy/buisness model. It is a non issue. See it as another different and fun toy in the sandbox :joystick:

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Ok. Do you really feel we need to discuss what to do with the CEII? It is an aerobatic plane, so I am pretty sure that it should be used in that fashion ;) what I was trying to get accross is that with all the good things coming, there is little to no benefit of debating CEII's place within DCS and M3s strategy/buisness model. It is a non issue. See it as another different and fun toy in the sandbox :joystick:

 

Yes becuase why would i buy it from a business point of you, I came to DCS to blow up and shoot things down.

 

Why would i buy this for DCS? I need a good reason.

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In my opinion, two things will greatly benefit this module.

 

1. Training. Training in how to fly this aircraft and training in the art of aerobatics.

2. A system that allows one to set up an Aresti plan (that's your mission, say) and then SCORES you on your execution of it.

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In my opinion, two things will greatly benefit this module.

 

1. Training. Training in how to fly this aircraft and training in the art of aerobatics.

2. A system that allows one to set up an Aresti plan (that's your mission, say) and then SCORES you on your execution of it.

 

Training i have the hawk C-101 and L-39

 

People have already built qualification campaigns for the A10C

 

So that would need to be built.

 

:dunno:

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Yes becuase why would i buy it from a business point of you, I came to DCS to blow up and shoot things down.

 

Why would i buy this for DCS? I need a good reason.

 

It will be pretty easy to "blow up" in CEII on 104th Phoenix server ;)

 

No seriously, I have a good reason for you. Lift.

Imagine doing loops at extremely low speeds. That constant speed propeller just slicing through the air like no mans buisness! Some kind of dreamt up auto-pilot by M3 that allows you to grab another beer without crashing. Low-level asshattery at full speed between buildings over Vegas. Trust me, if they get this right it will be one of coolest and fun modules in a long time. Even cooler than the upcoming Hornet. Carrier Landings? How about an inverted spin or lomcevak in VR! And if you feel like shooting something down, just jump into another module that does the combat stuff well :p

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Training i have the hawk C-101 and L-39

 

People have already built qualification campaigns for the A10C

 

So that would need to be built.

 

:dunno:

 

Every module should at the very least have a full set of training missions so you at least have something to do once you've bought it. Training missions and a SP campaign are the least devs can give us (for all modules).

 

At the moment, even planes like F5 and Viggen are only somewhat fun in a game sense, unless you use them in MP or cobble together your own missions. This module has NOTHING going for it, except that it represents a plane that can take-off and land and make turns. You can do aerobatics by yourself but there's no feedback on your progress or skills. Doing fancy maneuveres on a PC isn't fun by itself, because there's no physical sensations (even in VR), so you need something else to make it more worthwhile, hence my suggestion that DCS gets a way to create and score aerobatics maneuveres. A system like this would be useful for all modules, because we can do aerobatics with most of the existing modules.

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Yes, you are probably right. Good thing they are at least including training missions. One of the most interesting parts will be the FM. Low-speed and extreme envelopes are notoriously hard to simulate. The FM will either be the CEIIs greatest asset or biggest downfall.


Edited by Schmidtfire
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This would make for an interesting mod;)

 

Try doing this in VR:cry:

 

This is a Pitts Special.

 

 

 

.


Edited by David OC

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Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

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Coxy_99, if we/you can't find a reason for you to fly this - don't fly it.

 

I do like Shmidtfire's point of view on this. The CE2 is still an option in a vast sea of military aircraft. No-one needs to feel at all threatened by this.

 

 

In the end and despite my previous posts, all we can do is wait and see how this turns out. I mean, this could be the best module ever for VR users... it could be broken as **** and thus the issue is not if it is a civilian aircraft or not, but of quality... or it could be just as some predict - non-fitting into DCS and left with little-to no sales.

 

We can merely wait and see.

 

 

My OP proposal for this was and is, that something new could be tried with this module, as it's systems variety (= not many systems) would lend itself to this sort of "introductory/trial" model. Why not the L-39 or similar? Because I highly doubt ED would agree to change the monetization model for an aircraft already in sale/in the game. I bet the argument would be along the lines of "this would not be fair for the customers who already bought the aircraft".

 

 

some1 - I believe Schimdtfire is referring to the overall negativity toward the module, not on this thread specifically.

 

All in all, I am happy that this thread has stayed on a civilized level of conversation.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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