Viviane Questions

1. Is it normal to have to "fight" against the movement of the heli when slewing with a second joystick?

It sorta works with buttons since they apply 100% movement speed, but they're still terribly inaccurate and subject to this issue, and I'd much rather use a stick since the real thing does. Makes acquiring targets while on the move *very* painful.

The Viv also tends to rubberband after it has "locked" onto a spot while movement is pushing it elsewhere, causing the camera to jitter back and forth and usually spoiling any missile tracking (e.g. if you want to angle a few degrees away from the targets after launching to extend/avoid incoming fire without breaking the wire).

It's practically a non-issue in any other targeting pods/systems of any other modules, which makes me suspect that it might be a design issue. I'd expect more from such a heavy gyro-stabilized sighting system.

2. Does the "locking" of the Viviane exist in any way in real life or is this just a helping hand to compensate for not having a dedicated weapons officer? (like the auto-collective and hover mode, no?).

No one? Is it just me then?

Hi! What do you mean fighting agains the heli movement?

And auto-collective and hover a features and nop a helping as well as the locking. You can see this kind of tech in the KA-50 too.

Hi! What do you mean fighting agains the heli movement?

 

And auto-collective and hover a features and nop a helping as well as the locking. You can see this kind of tech in the KA-50 too.

If the heli moves in any direction other than facing the camera (or hovering), then you have to compensate for the heli movement when slewing the camera. This makes it much harder to move the camera accurately.

The problem is even greater when you are zoomed in because then the slewing speed is decreased. At maximum zoom, often-times you can't even move the camera fast enough to compensate, making you lose your target immediately and can't recover without zooming out or moving towards the target. And I'm not talking about crazy maneuvers - I'm talking about orbiting the AO while scouting, adding rudder input during your approach, angling off a bit and suchlike.

The KA-50 has all of it built-in, yes, but it's because it's a highly automated single-seater. The Gazelle devs have mentioned that some features are shortcuts to compensate for the lack of a co-pilot (e.g. a pilot dedicated to hovering and popping up while the weapons officer is acquiring and firing).

Having such a shortcut for Vivane "locking" if there's no actual locking feature in the real thing is problematic, so it's good to know what the conditions of it are. Does it lock terrain? Does it have a maximum distance?

Sometimes it stops locking entirely And the lack of gyroscopic stability from the first issue means that you have to move the camera - hope it locks where you want it to be - move the camera - hope it locks again, which is really awkward.

I'm just wanting to use the Gazelle to its full potential. Think I read on here about how pilots often conducted attacks in Libya while flying low and at 100km/h+, instead of being largely restricted to attacking from a hover (or have to fly straight into the target area and enemy tracers just for the camera to stay on target).

Use the modes of the viviane, the left rotatory is the one you have to look at.

Use the modes of the viviane, the left rotatory is the one you have to look at.

Are you sure? I fail to see how that would be the case.

3.Mode knob :

• “A” (ARRET – OFF)

• “C” (CONVOYAGE – Travel)

• “V” (VEILLE – Standby)

In the A, C and V positions the camera will look backward in its security position.

• “PIL” (PILOTE – Manned). In this position the camera, can be oriented.

• “ASS” (ASSERVI – Locked). In this positon, the camera will be locked to its last position.3

Asservi is barely ever used as it locks onto the direction of the camera, not anything else, right? I've only ever considered using it to visually ID with it if it matches up well with the L/Mistral version boresight. Or to remove the delay/FPS loss bump of turning it on from standby.

All of the problems I describe apply to the PILOTE mode.

Moving the helicopter while searching for targets with the Viviane camera system is quite a chore in singleplayer. As far as I know the Viviane is gyro stabilized and does indeed not lock on to anything but tries to keep pointing in the direction of your last input. Fireing a HOT3 while on the move in singleplayer and even in multicrew is nearly impossible. Your best bet would be to find a place in cover, terrain, buildings or trees (trees can be a bit tricky when it comes to the magic eyes of AI ground troops), go in to auto-hover, and engage Auto-Slave.

You can disengage auto collective so you still have control over your altitude so you can do a nice pop-up and hide back as soon as the HOT3 is off the rail as long as you keep visual contact with the target.

I'm assuming you know this but just to make sure, when in autohover and in the mission commander seat, you press E, or whatever key or joystick button you bind to "Auto-Slave" to make the autopilot point the nose within the HOT3 employment envelope. +3 / -3 degrees.

-snip-

Cheers for the response, I bet alot of newer pilots would find this information handy. I'm already familiar with it all already.

I was rather more trying to ascertain if and why the Viviane is so unstable/unreliable when used while on the move.

I'll try to figure out a good way to record in VR and then try to show an example of its behaviour and comparison to the targeting system behaviour of other modules.

Here's the official blurb on the system:-

"Thales Optronic Systems, in Guyancourt, France, provide the HOT / Viviane day / night sight. The roof-mounted Viviane includes day sight, infrared camera, laser rangefinder and CCD localiser. The stabilised sight and the slaving of the missile launcher in elevation permit firing from hover or in translation at speeds up to 150km/h and evasive manoeuvres at rates up to 6° a second after missile launch. Range of the missile when helicopter-launched is 4,300m."

Source: https://www.army-technology.com/projects/hot/

So it should (with the application of 2 humans) allow you to fire and guide on the move. I only have one human available (me), so am unable to reliably test.

After reading a lot of the Gazelle forums, I get the feeling that not a lot of these things have been fixed in the last 3 years, so don't hold your breath.

Here's the official blurb on the system:-

"Thales Optronic Systems, in Guyancourt, France, provide the HOT / Viviane day / night sight. The roof-mounted Viviane includes day sight, infrared camera, laser rangefinder and CCD localiser. The stabilised sight and the slaving of the missile launcher in elevation permit firing from hover or in translation at speeds up to 150km/h and evasive manoeuvres at rates up to 6° a second after missile launch. Range of the missile when helicopter-launched is 4,300m."

Source: https://www.army-technology.com/projects/hot/

So it should (with the application of 2 humans) allow you to fire and guide on the move. I only have one human available (me), so am unable to reliably test.

After reading a lot of the Gazelle forums, I get the feeling that not a lot of these things have been fixed in the last 3 years, so don't hold your breath.

Very nice find, now I feel dumb for researching the Viviane instead of the HOT system :doh:

And yeah, very limited expectations, but hopefully the devs will keep it in mind. It seems as if the vast majority of pilots have resigned to doing sneak attacks from a hover - and god knows how many have died to the training mission sniper tanks - so I was surprised at how it wasn't being mentioned as an issue .

At least I'm not crazy. I'll try to do some more testing, most of the issues seem to arise from rudder input during sideways translation and evasive turns.

Coming back to Gazelle after some time I am extremely dissapointed with Gazelle TV system when on move.

Camera movement is not only very choppy, certainly NOT fluid, it also demands compensation when the helicopter is moving. And then - it sometimes moves opposite to the controls!

(I was unable to slew right today. Right button moved camera left, left button moved it left even faster. I am positive I have not reached gimbal limits.)

Coming from Ka-50, where evading tactics after missile released is normal procedure - I am extremely dissapointed I am not able not only to hit the target, but even search on-move.

Polychop, please make double-triple effort to make sensor motion fluid and controllable in Kiowa. And hopefully fix someday in Gaz.

Coming back to Gazelle after some time I am extremely dissapointed with Gazelle TV system when on move.

Camera movement is not only very choppy, certainly NOT fluid, it also demands compensation when the helicopter is moving. And then - it sometimes moves opposite to the controls!

(I was unable to slew right today. Right button moved camera left, left button moved it left even faster. I am positive I have not reached gimbal limits.)

 

Coming from Ka-50, where evading tactics after missile released is normal procedure - I am extremely dissapointed I am not able not only to hit the target, but even search on-move.

 

Polychop, please make double-triple effort to make sensor motion fluid and controllable in Kiowa. And hopefully fix someday in Gaz.

Hey Kyuzo,

We'll look in to the control issues you have. It would be helpful if we could troubleshoot this in a live chat rather than by forum posts. It might very well be some settings / bindings that interfere with eachother. If you could contact me on Discord that would be very helpful.

However, you should also keep in mind that the Viviane does not lock to a point on the ground but rather tries to stabilise the camera to a certain angle. It will always move when the helicopter is moving and you'd need constant corrections unlike in the KA-50 where you can point track and area track based on contrast. There is simply no locking system in the Gazelle.

The control problems you describe will make it very hard for you to guide a missile on target while on the move but I have a pretty good idea of what might cause your problems.

Evading moves after missile release in the Gazelle is simply not done as too much deviation will cut the wire of the missile and you will have a hard time guiding the missile even in forward flight by making small corrections. It has only been since around 2001 that the standard operating procedures were changed from releasing missiles from a stable hover to shooting on the move. The forward movement is the only "protection" from AAA. Coming from an advanced attack helicopter to this scout helicopter will require you to change your tactics considerably. The two simply can not be compared. Keep in mind that the Vikhr ATGM is laser guided and the HOT 3 is optical wireguided.

If we figure out your control issues I'd suggest starting with pre 2001 SOP's and learning how to engage from a stable hover. Only after mastering that, move on to the much more hands on shooting on the move tactics.

Quoting a real Gazelle pilot:

having forward speed didn't mean you can dodge while firing

you have to stay almost straight, with a light banking angle

excessive deviation can't be compensated by VIVIANE

Hope you will contact me so we can troubleshoot this.

If you figure out what the cause of his problem is please post it here. I also have had problems with the camera movement reversing.

Moving the helicopter while searching for targets with the Viviane camera system is quite a chore in singleplayer. As far as I know the Viviane is gyro stabilized and does indeed not lock on to anything but tries to keep pointing in the direction of your last input. Fireing a HOT3 while on the move in singleplayer and even in multicrew is nearly impossible. Your best bet would be to find a place in cover, terrain, buildings or trees (trees can be a bit tricky when it comes to the magic eyes of AI ground troops), go in to auto-hover, and engage Auto-Slave.

 

You can disengage auto collective so you still have control over your altitude so you can do a nice pop-up and hide back as soon as the HOT3 is off the rail as long as you keep visual contact with the target.

 

I'm assuming you know this but just to make sure, when in autohover and in the mission commander seat, you press E, or whatever key or joystick button you bind to "Auto-Slave" to make the autopilot point the nose within the HOT3 employment envelope. +3 / -3 degrees.

ED needs to add this skill option for the AI gunners. Because outside of dedicated AA assets, ground fire is waaay too accurate IMO, especially things like APC's infantry etc.