Jump to content

Valve Index Hands On


aileron

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Why the need for such a high PD setting in a higher native resolution device?

With my new Rift S I lowered my PD from what I was using with CV1 and still get fantastic image clarity.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot release any info until the NDA expires but I can say the Index is the absolute best I have personally experienced when it comes to setting IPD. (and I have personally tried the Rift, the Rift S, the Samsung Odyssey Plus, the Vive Pro, the Pimax 5K and a few custom made headsets made here in the College of Engineering)

 

Interestingly worded. You mention IPD, not actual IQ

System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the NDA already lifted since we have close to a dozen reviews since yesterday:

 

https://www.polygon.com/virtual-reality/2019/5/28/18642360/valve-index-vr-headset-impressions-price

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3397088/valve-index-vr-headset-impressions.html

 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/28/18639084/valve-index-steamvr-headset-knuckles-controllers-preview

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/05/one-week-with-the-valve-index-a-vr-game-changer-with-a-few-question-marks/

 

 

Also, increasing PD is a rather inefficient way of increasing clarity since they are not real pixels. It just changes the algorithm behind what existing pixels display, making it a bit clearer. BUT, there are diminishing returns going beyond a certain amount of PD. A PD of 2.0 (which means 400% more pixels if you are using DCS slider) is surely not practical.


Edited by Panthera_Tigris

New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog

 

Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the NDA already lifted since we have close to a dozen reviews since yesterday:

 

https://www.polygon.com/virtual-reality/2019/5/28/18642360/valve-index-vr-headset-impressions-price

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3397088/valve-index-vr-headset-impressions.html

 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/28/18639084/valve-index-steamvr-headset-knuckles-controllers-preview

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/05/one-week-with-the-valve-index-a-vr-game-changer-with-a-few-question-marks/

 

 

Also, increasing PD is a rather inefficient way of increasing clarity since they are not real pixels. It just changes the algorithm behind what existing pixels display, making it a bit clearer. BUT, there are diminishing returns going beyond a certain amount of PD. A PD of 2.0 (which means 400% more pixels if you are using DCS slider) is surely not practical.

 

Exactly, which is why optimization of panel quality (like better subpixels) and higher resolution panels (reverb) are more important for image quality.

 

I'm more on the high refresh rate bandwagon, and it certainly sounds like it is much more immersive, lifelike, etc, according to tested.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm more on the high refresh rate bandwagon, .

 

No one would mind that. But how do you achieve it? I cant even hit 90 FPS with my 1080Ti on Gen 1 resolutions. How will we reach 120/ 144 FPS with more high res panels?

 

It might not be worth it for DCS and not even necessary. Its more beneficial for super fast paced games like Beat Saber.

 

Which is I am hoping the Reverb doesn't have any major issues because its res is pretty good. If it does have other issues than I'll have to settle with the Index resolution.

 

I would rather take more res (which will allow me to reduce sub-optimal trickery like super-sampling) over more refresh rate. Obviously, a minimum refresh rate of 45 is mandatory.

New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog

 

Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one would mind that. But how do you achieve it? I cant even hit 90 FPS with my 1080Ti on Gen 1 resolutions. How will we reach 120/ 144 FPS with more high res panels?

 

It might not be worth it for DCS and not even necessary. Its more beneficial for super fast paced games like Beat Saber.

 

Which is I am hoping the Reverb doesn't have any major issues because its res is pretty good. If it does have other issues than I'll have to settle with the Index resolution.

 

I would rather take more res (which will allow me to reduce sub-optimal trickery like super-sampling) over more refresh rate. Obviously, a minimum refresh rate of 45 is mandatory.

 

I think there's frame interpolation available.

 

 

My hope in the future is having 8k panels at 240hz, with onboard upscaling of lower resolution inputs, as well as onboard frame interpolation.

 

The key is making you feel like you're in real life, even if not all the frames are drawn.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's frame interpolation available.

 

 

My hope in the future is having 8k panels at 240hz, with onboard upscaling of lower resolution inputs, as well as onboard frame interpolation.

 

The key is making you feel like you're in real life, even if not all the frames are drawn.

 

 

If we are hoping for things that dont exist yet, with no hardware yet to run them with, then why settle for those paltry figures?

 

 

 

Valve have - in real life - patented 10,000x10,000 (I think thats equivalent to 100K. When did we start using this arse-backward resolution nomenclature btw?) VR displays.

 

Or heck, lets jump straight to laser diode retinal projection with per-rod/cone resolution.

 

First of course we need to re-work how we code software to move away from this whole discrete "frame by frame" business and to an adaptive, continuous model.

 

But if you have any imagination at all, you get rid of goggles altogether and build it all into wet-chemistry, molecular-circuit contact lenses.

 

Give it a thousand years and we'll be writing new products directly into our genetic code.

 

 

 

 

But Ill settle for not having to wait too long for the Index/Reverb debate to be settled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's frame interpolation available.

 

Interpolation is a crutch. I would rather have 80 FPS stable in a 80 Hz headset without interpolation, rather than 144 FPS of which 72 are fake interpolated frames.

 

Interpolation works by looking at previous frames and then predicting the shape and position of objects in the next frame. So it will work wonderfully for static objects but not so good in a dynamic environment.

 

Additionally, running these interpolation algorithms also has a performance cost, although I dont know how much.

New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog

 

Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we are hoping for things that dont exist yet, with no hardware yet to run them with, then why settle for those paltry figures?

 

 

 

Valve have - in real life - patented 10,000x10,000 (I think thats equivalent to 100K. When did we start using this arse-backward resolution nomenclature btw?) VR displays.

 

Or heck, lets jump straight to laser diode retinal projection with per-rod/cone resolution.

 

First of course we need to re-work how we code software to move away from this whole discrete "frame by frame" business and to an adaptive, continuous model.

 

But if you have any imagination at all, you get rid of goggles altogether and build it all into wet-chemistry, molecular-circuit contact lenses.

 

Give it a thousand years and we'll be writing new products directly into our genetic code.

 

 

 

 

But Ill settle for not having to wait too long for the Index/Reverb debate to be settled.

 

That's why you should get the Valve Index, it's the best available system for VR right now.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me personally - I have preliminarily chosen the Index (I preordered) based on the paper specs and imagined use, but I want to see what the real life experience is in DCS specifically. Thats what I am primarily buying the headset for.

 

 

 

I have seen the Pimax and HP reverb previews / reviews (Rift S not in the running for me), and I am not seeing what I think would be a 'gotta have' experience. I am curious to see if the HP Reverb gets great reviews here, which could potentially sway me to that headset, but WMR is still a concern (I have the o+ with minor but really annoying WMR issues).

 

 

Time will tell.

:pilotfly: Specs: I9-9900k; ROG Strix RTX 2080ti; Valve Index HMD; 32GB DDR4 3200 Ram; Samsung 970 EVO 1TB SSD; TM Warthog with pedals, 3 TM MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the o+ with minor but really annoying WMR issues).

 

Can you elaborate? I am learning towards the Reverb now and the 2-3 DCS with Reverb reviews we have had have all been praising it a lot.

 

I have heard their repro tech sucks? And tracking is bad which would be a no-go for action/ shooter type games but they say its not an issue for seated games.

New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog

 

Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just waiting for the day they can shoot high density pixel right into my eyes without permanent damage. :)

System specs: Intel i9-9900k OC 5.1Ghz, 32 GB PC3200 G.SKILL TridentZ RGB RAM, Asus Strix 2080 TI OC SLI, Asus Z390 Workstation Pro, 970 EVO 1TB M.2 PCIe NVMe and many other SSDs, Alienware 3418DW Widescreen 120 Hz G-Sync Monitor, Corsair H150i PRO RGB CPU Cooler

 

Flightgear: HP Reverb Pro, Samsung Odyssey +, Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 Grip & T-50CM2 Base, TM Warthog, TM TPR Rudder, TM Cougar MFDs, Jetseat, Trackir 5, Sennheiser Game One Headset

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure - All very minor but annoying nonetheless.

 

1. All of the splashscreens flicker and go in and out for all DCS - you get used to it, but it makes moving in and out of DCS feel unpolished and the flickering hurts my eyes.

 

2. Tracking is good mostly, but about every third or fourth time I go into DCS I lose my lean forward back axis on DOF and have to exit both DCS and SteamVR to recalibrate the HMD in WMR to get it back

 

3. Sun goes down, and my room gets dark, the WMR tracking starts stuttering, and I have to get the lights on in the room. This can also cause the item in #2, which means a reset of WMR to get things working.

 

4. The use of both WMR AND SteamVR makes the setup and config a bit cloogy; add in Nvidia and the settings in DCS and there are many places to configure the headset, which means time going through each, writing down what is set to allow for a known config when in the sim.

 

5. Inside WMR headsets, there is this sensor to know when you have the headset on. This activates your presence in WMR, and causes the mouse and keyboard to shift focus. When this happens, the mouse stops working in DCS VR cockpit. To get it back, you have to toggle with Win+y keys, which totally disrupts immersion. You can cover the sensor with some tape in the HMD, but I still occasionally get this and have to Alt+tab back to desktop to refocus back on my DCS vr session.

 

That covers the main points. Anyone else who has others, feel free to share.


Edited by Nagilem

:pilotfly: Specs: I9-9900k; ROG Strix RTX 2080ti; Valve Index HMD; 32GB DDR4 3200 Ram; Samsung 970 EVO 1TB SSD; TM Warthog with pedals, 3 TM MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

#1 happens to me with the Vive as well so I doubt its WMR specific but rather a DCS issue.

 

But yea, the rest of the stuff does seem annoying, especially #4.

 

I think I'll add one more - WMR frame interpolation algorithms are nowhere as good as Oculus' or even Valve's. Correct?

New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog

 

Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@PT - I haven't seen anything in WMR. I did however setup the Motionvector setting in SteamVR which did make a big difference for me.

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=228378&highlight=motionvector

 

 

YMMV with the Reverb.

:pilotfly: Specs: I9-9900k; ROG Strix RTX 2080ti; Valve Index HMD; 32GB DDR4 3200 Ram; Samsung 970 EVO 1TB SSD; TM Warthog with pedals, 3 TM MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure - All very minor but annoying nonetheless.

 

1. All of the splashscreens flicker and go in and out for all DCS - you get used to it, but it makes moving in and out of DCS feel unpolished and the flickering hurts my eyes.

 

2. Tracking is good mostly, but about every third or fourth time I go into DCS I lose my lean forward back axis on DOF and have to exit both DCS and SteamVR to recalibrate the HMD in WMR to get it back

 

3. Sun goes down, and my room gets dark, the WMR tracking starts stuttering, and I have to get the lights on in the room. This can also cause the item in #2, which means a reset of WMR to get things working.

 

4. The use of both WMR AND SteamVR makes the setup and config a bit cloogy; add in Nvidia and the settings in DCS and there are many places to configure the headset, which means time going through each, writing down what is set to allow for a known config when in the sim.

 

5. Inside WMR headsets, there is this sensor to know when you have the headset on. This activates your presence in WMR, and causes the mouse and keyboard to shift focus. When this happens, the mouse stops working in DCS VR cockpit. To get it back, you have to toggle with Win+y keys, which totally disrupts immersion. You can cover the sensor with some tape in the HMD, but I still occasionally get this and have to Alt+tab back to desktop to refocus back on my DCS vr session.

 

That covers the main points. Anyone else who has others, feel free to share.

 

Based on my experience with a CV1...

 

1. is a DCS thing, it does it with the rift too from what you describe

 

2. sounds like a genuine issue

 

3. lights on!

 

4. sounds like a pain

 

5. The occulus does this too, but you don't loose the mouse. but Win+Y doesn't sound too bad, I type on my keyboard in VR all the time.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Harlikwin - Yeah, none of them are deal breakers and can be easily overcome. #2 and 5 are the worst of it, and 5 doesn't happen often if you cover the sensor.

 

 

#2 is the one that happens most often that causes me some pain. Easily fixed, but you have to get used to rocking in your chair at the hangar menu to see if its a problem. That way you don't get all the way in and realize you have to restart the process...

:pilotfly: Specs: I9-9900k; ROG Strix RTX 2080ti; Valve Index HMD; 32GB DDR4 3200 Ram; Samsung 970 EVO 1TB SSD; TM Warthog with pedals, 3 TM MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I need help here I have order the Index but, and this is a big but, I do not have any Steam modules only DCS standalone. I do not know if I will be able to use it without repurchasing from Steam and 1500 Cnd is a lot of money for something I may not be able to use

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Window 10, i9-9900,2080TI, 32GB ram Puma Pro Flight Trainer, 2 x 1TB WB SSD NVMe HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RePhil - You don't need the Steam Version of DCS. Stand alone will do. You will need the SteamVr software for the drivers for the index.

 

 

I run O+ headset with stand alone DCS through SteamVR for WMR just fine.

:pilotfly: Specs: I9-9900k; ROG Strix RTX 2080ti; Valve Index HMD; 32GB DDR4 3200 Ram; Samsung 970 EVO 1TB SSD; TM Warthog with pedals, 3 TM MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RePhil - You don't need the Steam Version of DCS. Stand alone will do. You will need the SteamVr software for the drivers for the index.

 

 

I run O+ headset with stand alone DCS through SteamVR for WMR just fine.

 

I have done that as well but, since Index was not WMR and only works with Steam needed to find out before it is to late to cancel order before its shipped Thanks for response

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Window 10, i9-9900,2080TI, 32GB ram Puma Pro Flight Trainer, 2 x 1TB WB SSD NVMe HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have done that as well but, since Index was not WMR and only works with Steam needed to find out before it is to late to cancel order before its shipped Thanks for response

 

You won't have any problem. DCS VR can only be run through SteamVR or Oculus, and unless you have an Oculus device everything else goes through SteamVR no matter what version you have (standalone or steam).

 

My Vive/Vive Pro (same platform as Index) have zero issue with standalone DCS, and as a matter of fact, I would think that most DCS VR players prefer the standalone DCS since it usually gets an update before the Steam version.

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not experiencing the main issues as you are Nagilem but I do find the whole WMR to Steam VR experience to be clunky and not up to what is offered by the Oculus dashboard. I currently have seven VR headsets in my pit area but the one I turn to most of the time is the Rift S simply because it has the fewest headaches. For example, I really like some elements of the Pimax 5K but with its essentially beta software, it just is not up to the easy user experience of the Rift S. Out of all the headsets currently released and using DCS, I get the very best results with the Odyssey Plus but that was only after I spent a fair amount of time tinkering with it. For almost every VR experience aside from DCS, I prefer the ease and refinement of the Rift S.

 

 

My experience and opinion is very similar. Similar systems in terms of gaming performance for the most part, and I've had similar results with the Rift, Vive, Vive Pro, Odyssey, Odyssey+, Pimax5k, and now the Rift S. I find that the Rift S is pretty much the go to headset for DCS and pretty much every other game/sim right in our home of 4 PC gamers. I'm surprised to be typing this as based on the specs prior to release, I didn't think the Rift S would compete in DCS with the Odyssey+ or Pimax5k (pita HMD IMO). It does, and it's much simpler and more satisfying to use because of it.

 

 

 

I'm eagerly awaiting the Reverb and Index, and I have daily battles with the missus over getting an Xtal to test out. For now though, I'd recommend the Rift S to any DCS or sim player, or any PC gamer for that matter. It's relatively inexpensive for what you get too, I got mine from the Microsoft Store in Canada with the student discount (I take one class distance learning at Stanford CS/AI lab, hahah), for $369 USD after tax and free shipping.


Edited by Gman109

Systems

 

 

Virpil T50x2,T50CM2x2,Warbrd x2, VFX/Delta/CM2/Alpha/Tm Hornet sticks, VKB GF3, Tm Warthog(many), Modded Cougar, VKB Pedals/MFG Pedals/Slaw Viper RX+109Cam Pedals/Virpil T50+T50CM Throttle/CH Fightersticks/CH Throttles/CH peds, Index x1, Reverb x1

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...