Fictional Load-Out: Sea Eagle ASM

Hi,

Would you be happy with a module that had the ability for fictional weapons load, that was tested in reality but never entered service?

Best regards,

Tango.

Yes. More weapons variety is always nice.

Yes. More weapons variety is always nice.

+1

mig-21bis brings us kh-66 (most are happy with it), so why not this.

Yes. Of course the sim has to be realistic and used weapons loadouts should have some reality behind them, but then again in DCS we fly A10s against T-90s, which has neber happened either :)

The point is that some loadouts are tested so that they can be used in a war. Luckily in the real world the need never matearilized.

Edit: also, we currently have plenty of aerial platforms for unguided rockets; sea eagle would really make the c-101 cc stand out from the rest of them.

Why never entered in service? the test went wrong?

Some weapons has tested in planes, but monetary problems put them out of commission. The C-101 not was a exception. C-101 carring Sea Eagle:

A old Fliglobal article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987%20-%200745.html

And a entrace on a chilean blogspot talking about them:

http://faroportales.blogspot.com.es/2008/10/aviacion-naval-ii.html

Why never entered in service? the test went wrong?

one could say the Tsar bomba test went wrong. It was designed to be approx 25-30Mt where as in reality is was 50+

does this mean we are getting the Tsar bomba?

As long as the fictional loadouts are within reason (e.g. no AIM-54 for example, even if they tested it :P :huh:) and can be realistically operated I'd say yes!

+1

 

mig-21bis brings us kh-66 (most are happy with it), so why not this.

the MiG-21 used the KH-66 alot actually, and the weapon was designed for it and the MiG-23, it is not a fictional weapon.

If it was tested and proven that the plane can operate such weapons in practice, I don't see why not. It will add more flexibility to the plane for various scenarios and it can always be disabled/not used as well.

Was it really the CC that carried it?

Or was it the further developed DD version that they ended up never buying (a few prototypes existed) and that was also meant to carry AGM-65?

I don't know how the aiming should work for the Sea Eagle. Could you elaborate on that?

For me it is the use of the weapon. If it can't be used realistically (target acquisition and aiming) I would vote for No.

If you can dig up how it would have been done and build that, AND it doesn't have a great impact on the balance of the game: Yes.

There are some things already in DCS that are close to realistic but never used (A-10C with six Mavericks for example), so why not. I can't imagine that a C-101 with Sea Eagles would kill the balance of the game in any way.

EDIT: And on MP the mission designer can disable them, so no problem I guess.

Don't see how it could hurt at all. Could be fun as using Anti Ship Missiles in this sim

the MiG-21 used the KH-66 alot actually, and the weapon was designed for it and the MiG-23, it is not a fictional weapon.

thats pfm only not bis. Bis cannot launch it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

It's not a fictional load out if it was actually flown and tested, but just never entered service.

It's arguably an experimental load out, but it's not fictional like the Mig21Bis using the Kh-66 is.

thats pfm only not bis. Bis cannot launch it.

From what I have read the PFM was the first to use the Kh-66 and every single seat Fishbed after that model has the capability to use it. Seems illogical that a precision guided weapon such as the Kh-66 would be abandoned in the definitive fighter-bomber version of the Fishbed. What is your reference?

Was it really the CC that carried it?

Or was it the further developed DD version that they ended up never buying (a few prototypes existed) and that was also meant to carry AGM-65?

 

I don't know how the aiming should work for the Sea Eagle. Could you elaborate on that?

 

For me it is the use of the weapon. If it can't be used realistically (target acquisition and aiming) I would vote for No.

Sea eagle can be used in a simple point and shoot mode. So basically someone radioes the bearing of the enemy fleet to you, you point your nose that way, launch without spotting the fleet yourself and pray :) They tested it in Hawk. Planes with sensors can use more complex firing modes.

From what I have read the PFM was the first to use the Kh-66 and every single seat Fishbed after that model has the capability to use it. Seems illogical that a precision guided weapon such as the Kh-66 would be abandoned in the definitive fighter-bomber version of the Fishbed. What is your reference?

"precision guided" is a rather big word in this context ... :D

But search the forums, there was a discussion about it already. Matter of fact seems to be, that the radar of the real 21bis is just incompatible with the Kh-66. Iirc has something to do with the frequency range that is used.

edit:

I.e. here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2255579&postcount=3

From what I have read the PFM was the first to use the Kh-66 and every single seat Fishbed after that model has the capability to use it. Seems illogical that a precision guided weapon such as the Kh-66 would be abandoned in the definitive fighter-bomber version of the Fishbed. What is your reference?

Different radar different operation principle. So no

If you have all information to implement the Sea Eagle in the Culopollo....Welcome aboard Sea Eagle!

"precision guided" is a rather big word in this context ... :D

 

But search the forums, there was a discussion about it already. Matter of fact seems to be, that the radar of the real 21bis is just incompatible with the Kh-66. Iirc has something to do with the frequency range that is used.

After some more research I see that uboats was correct, The PFM is the only version to use it. Perhaps the missile should be removed from the Bis.

I'm not sure I like the idea of test loadouts being included. Next thing you know we will have F-14's with AMRAAMS and AGM-88's, A-6's with AGM-109's, B-1B's with AGM-86 and AGM-129's, and C-5's with LGM-130's.

In the ME the only way to restrict a weapons use on a particular airframe is to simply remove the weapon from the inventory or, on the flip side, remove the aircraft you don't want using it. Restricting the weapon is fine for an obscure type such as the AGM-109 but when it comes to the AIM-120 or AGM-88 you will be removing either the F-14 from the carriers or a lot of capability from the F/A-18's with the removal of those weapons. That is the problem with fictional loadouts and until there is a way to easily force true loadouts only in the ME I don't believe the nonstandard loadouts be included. That and not all aircraft have fictional loadouts or even the actual loadouts the aircraft has carried in combat in the case of the Israeli F-15's.

If the fictional route is chosen then who would like to see the F-15C with AGM-88's and Iron bombs as well and wouldn't a B-1B look sweet with its external hardpoints activated... imagine the devastation.

After some more research I see that uboats was correct, The PFM is the only version to use it. Perhaps the missile should be removed from the Bis.

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of test loadouts being included. Next thing you know we will have F-14's with AMRAAMS and AGM-88's, A-6's with AGM-109's, B-1B's with AGM-86 and AGM-129's, and C-5's with LGM-130's.

In the ME the only way to restrict a weapons use on a particular airframe is to simply remove the weapon from the inventory or, on the flip side, remove the aircraft you don't want using it. Restricting the weapon is fine for an obscure type such as the AGM-109 but when it comes to the AIM-120 or AGM-88 you will be removing either the F-14 from the carriers or a lot of capability from the F/A-18's with the removal of those weapons. That is the problem with fictional loadouts and until there is a way to easily force true loadouts only in the ME I don't believe the nonstandard loadouts be included. That and not all aircraft have fictional loadouts or even the actual loadouts the aircraft has carried in combat in the case of the Israeli F-15's.

 

If the fictional route is chosen then who would like to see the F-15C with AGM-88's and Iron bombs as well and wouldn't a B-1B look sweet with its external hardpoints activated... imagine the devastation.

actually it doesn't matter. More options being available doesn't mean you have to do it all the time. For some simmers that want to have fun, they can enjoy fictional equipment. But for serious simulation or operations/mission/campaign, he/she can disable it for reality.

actually it doesn't matter. More options being available doesn't mean you have to do it all the time. For some simmers that want to have fun, they can enjoy fictional equipment. But for serious simulation or operations/mission/campaign, he/she can disable it for reality.

That is fine for single player but what about multiplayer? There is no way I know of to force the use of certain weapons on aircraft other than completely removing them. Even if you have aircraft based at different locations there is nothing stopping a pilot from flying his plane to the base that has the weapons, loading them up and flying the unrealistic loadout. Right now the only options are to completely remove said weapons from the map or not use the unrealistic aircraft at all. This has an impact on gameplay in the future. Now if DCS had an option that identified unrealistic loadouts and blocked them from use in the ME I would be all for it. As it stands now without that feature I don't think it is a good idea.

That is fine for single player but what about multiplayer? There is no way I know of to force the use of certain weapons on aircraft other than completely removing them. Even if you have aircraft based at different locations there is nothing stopping a pilot from flying his plane to the base that has the weapons, loading them up and flying the unrealistic loadout. Right now the only options are to completely remove said weapons from the map or not use the unrealistic aircraft at all. This has an impact on gameplay in the future. Now if DCS had an option that identified unrealistic loadouts and blocked them from use in the ME I would be all for it. As it stands now without that feature I don't think it is a good idea.

Make supplies for the unwanted weapon you have in mind not available. It works.

Excluding the nuclear bombs carried by the Mig-21 from the warehouse is a good example. Otherwise multiplayer missions on public servers would be totally ruined...

EDIT:

You mean: you want to prevent for example someone from loading a certain weapon while at the same time another type of aircraft IS allowed to use the weapon? Yes, then there is a problem.

my opinion is simple:

could the REAL aircraft use the weapon in question WITHOUT an upgrade of ANY kind?

see, some aircraft might have the software/hardware to operate a weapon, but in reality it is not done for whatever reason, then go for it.