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Old 07-25-2014, 03:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooTall View Post
*Edit: I wasn't faster on the keyboard lol, thanks for the answer Friedrich*

Didn't they have the option for cannon gondolas under the wings for bomber intercept? Granted that isn't explosive ordinance, but just wondering if that was possible to arm on the K4?
Possible/planned, but rarely used if ever.

A few K-4s were delivered with an MG 151/20 in place of the Mk 108, but I'm not asking for that as an option.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurfürst View Post
it seems legit, or at least, fun
Totally agree... if the options are there then no reason not to include these... mission designers can limit as they see fit.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN View Post
If anyone has any good docs on the underwing cannons and wants to share it please do, otherwise I will look around for it. I am positive Yo-Yo already has wind-tunnel data for most external attachements including these...

Be interested to see if there was an cockpit mods needed for this.
They housed one 2cm Mauser MG 151/20 each, percussion firing type, unsynchronized. Tha ammunition is actually stored in the wing in a drum-like ammunition belt container.
.
They had most commonly reported to have 135 round for each gun. Some other sources mention down to 125 and up to 140 rpg.

The two guns and their accessorizes weigthed 135 kg, and 215 kg complete with ammunition.

The gondolas clean aerdynamic drag was equivalent of +0,0215 sq. meters of Δ[Fcw], or resulted roughly about -8 km/h speed loss at SL. To this needed to be added the increased induced drag resulting from the added weight of 215kg, i.e. roughly equivalent to about - 1,5 km/h at SL and about -6 km/h at rated altitude, as per this January 1944 document:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...ragitems_table

The harmonization and external ballistics of the similarly armed G-6/U4 m. R VI was as follows:



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Old 07-25-2014, 04:12 PM   #24
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Bf 109 K-4m W.Nr. 570 xxx "Weisse 6", 9. /JG 4, Germany, Spring 1945, with something under the belly that very much looks like an AB (250?) series bomb container.

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The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
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Old 07-25-2014, 04:14 PM   #25
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The usual 300 liter drop tanks on 109Ks

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The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN View Post
... Anything else?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messers...f_109#Bf_109_K

Weapons:
2x 13mm MG.131 (300 shot each, positioned above engine)
1x 30mm Mk.108 (65 shot, through propeller)
2x pylons for under-wing weapons (2x MG.151/20) or rockets (2x W.Gr. 21 or 42)
1x bomb-pylon ETC.500 (1x 250 kg) or ETC.503 (1x 250 kg or 1x 500 kg)

Quote:
Bewaffnung:
zwei 13-mm-MG MG 131 (je 300 Schuss) über dem Motor und eine 30-mm-MK 108 (65 Schuss), durch die Propellernabe feuernd;
dazu verschiedene Rüstsätze für Unterflügelrohrwaffen (2 × MG 151/20) oder Raketen (2 × WGr 21 oder 42),
ein Bombenträger ETC 500 IXb (1 × 250 kg) oder ein Bombenträger ETC 503 (1 × 250 kg oder 1 × 500 kg)
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Last edited by Hans-Joachim Marseille; 07-25-2014 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille View Post
http://www.fliegerweb.com/geschichte...ow=lexikon-586

"Die Bf.109 K-4 entsprach bis auf die Verwendung einer Druckkabine völlig der K-2. Sie wurde nur in geringer Stückzahl etwa 80 Stück gebaut.
Ab Februar 1945 erhielten einige Maschinen als Motorkanone die 30 mm Maschinenkanone MK 103 mit 60 Schuss."

From February 1945 some planes were outfitted with 60-shot 30mm Mk.103 motor-gun (propeller).
There was no K-2s built.

A big nope. There was some experimenting with a MK103M but it went nowhere.

And, there was no cowl fitted MG151s.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiloMorai View Post
There was no K-2s built.

A big nope. There was some experimenting with a MK103M but it went nowhere.

And, there was no cowl fitted MG151s.
That's why I already edited my post above ...
The Mk.103 was too big, long and heavy for the Bf.109 (I found the counter after submitting my post).
For MG.151 implementation too many modifications (motor-support, fire-wall, motor-supply) needed to be made, so also unlikely.
Where did you read that no K-2's where built? It says K-2 and K-6 were built in small numbers, however it cannot be established without doubt that they made it into service.

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/Flug...ugzeug109K.htm

Quote:
Die einzige Version der K-Serie, die in größeren Zahlen zum Einsatz kam, war die K-4. Von der K-2 und der K-6 wurden jeweils nur wenige Exemplare gebaut, doch ist heute nicht mehr zweifelsfrei feststellbar, ob überhaupt noch eine einzige Maschine dieser Varianten je in Dienst gestellt wurde.

Über die K-Serie wird oft behauptet, dass 15 mm MG 151 Maschinenkanonen die Stelle der 13 mm MG 131 vor dem Cockpit eingenommen hätten, ebenso, dass eine Variante mit 30 mm MK 103 Motorkanone in Produktion gewesen sei. Diese Vorstellung ist jedoch unhaltbar, da sich die 30 mm MK 103 für ein Flugzeug wie die Bf 109 als zu groß, zu lang und zu schwer erwies. Auch der Einsatz der 15 mm MG 151 als Rumpfwaffen vor dem Cockpit war technisch nicht möglich, da dieses Vorhaben umfangreiche Modifikationen (Motorträger, Brandschott, Motorzusatzaggregate etc.) zur Folge gehabt hätte. Zudem war die 15 mm-Ausführung des MG 151 schon lange zuvor ausgemustert, bzw. auf das Kaliber 20 mm umgerüstet worden.
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Last edited by Hans-Joachim Marseille; 07-25-2014 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:27 AM   #29
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Accounts differ re the K-2 and K-6; according to Prien & Rodeike no K-2s were built and there was one K-6; JaPo says one of each. The Flugzeug Profile No 5 on the G/K gives the W.Nr. 600056 for the single K-2 prototype, which first appeared at Tarnewitz at the end of September 1944
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Old 07-26-2014, 09:28 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille View Post
The Mk.103 was too big, long and heavy for the Bf.109 (I found the counter after submitting my post).
The MK 103mot was developed specifically from the 109K to fit into the blast tube. It was to be the main armament for the K-10 variant, which did not have the chance to enter mass production. Only the K-4 was mass produced.

K-6 was to have 3 MK 108s (1 nose, 2 in wings), the same DB 605D engine and greatly increased armor protection. One was tested in Tarnewitz. The K-14 was to have the same setup (3 MK 108, extra armor) but was powered by the two stage DB 605L with extreme high altitude output. It was a stand-in, should the Ta 152 project fail.
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The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.
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