F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

I keep reading that the Hornet out turns the Viper in DCS. If this is true it's not right.

I keep reading that the Hornet out turns the Viper in DCS. If this is true it's not right.

 

What do you mean by "out turn"?

Better instantaneous turn rate?

Better sustained turn rate?

Better turn radius?

And under what conditions?: what altitude? what loadout?

And under what constraints? Maximum allowable G on paper? Or actual?

All of these matter. And depending on what your answers are, it might be either the F-16 or the F-18.

Did you watch the video?

Did you watch the video?

"Minimum radius turn time" ... ? Is that minimum radius or maximum rate? These are very different in EM theory. It's like saying, "fasted longest distance". That's when I turned the video off. Life is too short to get caught up in strong or clear arguments based on weak or fuzzy concepts. But apart from the video, as your question includes the phrase "out turn", you should also clarify what you mean with reference to the questions/parameters I describe before. You may get answers without doing so, but trust me --- they'll be meaningless.

I assume that competition was apples to apples. Maybe in different conditions, the Hornet would turn better.

However, in the video, the Viper was the clear winner. That's all I showed. It looks like the Viper out turned the Hornet by about 4 seconds.

I assume that competition was apples to apples. Maybe in different conditions, the Hornet would turn better.

 

However, in the video, the Viper was the clear winner. That's all I showed.

Conditions is only half the story.

The other half is the metric by which you are defining "winner".

Minimum radius or maximum rate?

These are different, with different "betters" and "winners" ....

In the beginning of the video it says they're testing minimum radius.

Kind of important in a dogfight no?

In the beginning of the video it says they're testing minimum radius.

 

Kind of important in a dogfight no?

Only in a 1C dogfight. In 2C rate wins

Ok.

In the beginning of the video it says they're testing minimum radius.

 

Kind of important in a dogfight no?

Also, in the beginning of the video it says "minimum radius turn time" .... from an EM perspective, that's just word salad (in particular, the conflating/confounding of radius and rate).

Not to mention, that the two important things that matter is how much G the aircraft are pulling and how fast they are going ... even assuming they control for altitude and weight. Without that info, I don't think you can take that video as anything in the way of meaningful evidence of anything except cool flying

It sounds like you prefer the Hornet better in a dogfight?

Do you think both planes are accurate in turn rate in DCS?

Not to mention, that the two important things that matter is how much G the aircraft are pulling and how fast they are going ... even assuming they control for altitude and weight. Without that info, I don't think you can take that video as anything in the way of meaningful evidence of anything except cool flying

That was a competition. Don't you think they made sure conditions were equal for all planes?

It sounds like you prefer the Hornet better in a dogfight?

 

Do you think both planes are accurate in turn rate in DCS?

I prefer the Tomcat :)

Whether or not it is better :)

And, honestly, there are ways of flying each of the F-14/F-18/F-16 so that anyone of them can be better than the other. And I'm not just talking about pilot skill. I'm talking about flying each aircraft to its strengths vs the weakness of the other.

Are you a real pilot?

No argument about liking the Tomcat. It's in a class by itself.

That was a competition. Don't you think they made sure conditions were equal for all planes?

Source please, the youtuber looks to have put several clips of a variety of planes doing aerobatic routines together and created a series of comparison videos, the "winners" go forward to the next "youtube" round and he repeats the comparison.

Keep in mind with that video...those are all taken from different performances and conditions, etc.

It's..not really viable for a proper comparison as something as say..an instrumented turn competition on the same day/place, etc

I stand corrected.

Are you a real pilot?

Absolutely not.

No argument about liking the Tomcat. It's in a class by itself.

:thumbup:

That was a competition. Don't you think they made sure conditions were equal for all planes?

I have no idea. Without that information being shared --- down to the numbers --- neither does anyone else. Even if conditions are "equal", it's also meaningless, because those "equal conditions" may favor one aircraft over another (e.g., altitude, tournament G-limitations, loadout), while a different altitude/loadout may have the opposite result.

I didn't realize the video and competition was put together by one guy. I thought it was official.

My bad.

As it stands ingame:

The odd part here is that the F/A-18 keeps being better than the F-16 in STR irrespective of speed, something which doesn't correlate with what the real life pilots say.

It doesn't help ofcourse that atm the DCS F-16 also seems oddly unwilling to quickly put on the G's (slow G-onset rate), and thus hitting 9+ G's isn't possible unless you're going well above corner speed. Also 9.3 G's doesn't seem possible in a level turn ingame, only in a pull out, where'as the real Viper hits 9.3 G's in level turns quite easily and has sometimes hit 10 G's in pullouts.

I keep reading that the Hornet out turns the Viper in DCS. If this is true it's not right.

 

As has been mentioned, i don’t think you can compare the minimum turn of different fighters based on an air show. Comparing this stuff is difficult since there are so many variables. It’s great that a plane can fly Mach 2.2 or pull off a Pugachev’s cobra when it’s clean. Through on 2 AA missles, two 2,000lb bombs and enough fuel to overcome the drag and sustain a reasonable missile range....and THEN tell me how fast it goes. Think you’re gonna pull off a cobra armed with 6 AAMs, ECM pods and a 3/4 full fuel tank? Point is that even IF you could conclude that one out turns the other based on that video, that doesn’t carry over to combat conditions. The F-18c wiyh an almost max combat load will outrun an F-16c at its max.

This, btw, is why an F-35 combat loaded with 2 AMRAAMS and 2 1,000lb bombs can outrun almost anything carrying similar ordinance...the F-35 Carries it internally creating no additional drag; so no need for external bags and additional drag. So which is faster, an SU-27 (which hits Mach 2.2 clean) or an F-35 (that hits Mach 1.6 clean)? The F-35 can carry 6-AAMs (next block) 4 AMRAAM & 2 AIM-9 internally- or 2 Aim-9, 2 AMRAAM and two 1,000lb bombs (again, next block with AIM-9 side bays. Well, clean, it’s the SU-27. Combat loaded??? It’s close, with altitude deciding. 10,000ft or less, I’m betting on the F-35. So what does it mean to say that- at an air show, one plane was faster than another?

Generally, because of how well it tolerates high AoA, the F-18 has a much smaller turn radius...smaller than any other gen 4- gen 4.5 US fighter. I’d take an F-18 over an F-16 if we are having a WVR fight at under 400 knots. But above? I’m taking the Viper. One turn fight? The hornet. 2 turn? Viper.

Point is that you can’t compare the turn rate of two aircraft clean in a non-combat situation with the turn rate loaded and in combat (simulated) and declare that the latter is inaccurate because the result isn’t the same as the former. Who knows what happens differently based on what the pilot sees

Well, if we're talking about which plane is better in a gun fight. Both planes will be clean. Here's a quote from a real pilot who's flown both planes.

"Given a choice head to head, I would probably choose the F-16. Although I really love fighting in the Hornet against other Hornets, there is no worse feeling than being bled down on energy and out of options. I fought several F/A-18Cs, F/A-18E/Fs, and CF-18s when I flew the F-16, and I never lost. Aside from the F-22, I really don’t think there’s a better dogfighting aircraft out there. A lot of thrust is good, more is better. A clean F-16 is just a rocket ship. That’s just personal preference, of course. Others who have flown both may have vastly differing opinions."

Only in a 1C dogfight. In 2C rate wins

Haven't tested turn radii in game, but the game version of the Hornet seems to beat the game version of the Viper in both alpha and sustained rate turns for a wide range of speeds from 350 to 600 knots. The Hornet winning on sustained rate seems unrealistic from all real world reports. The Viper bleeds speed much easier in turns, but also recovers speed little quicker when taking a slightly more shallow turn angle. The drag modeling on the Viper might be a little excessive since it's time to reach 600 knots from 350 knots is about 4 seconds too long, or 30% slower than it should be.