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DCS G-Model


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You can already move your head in unrealistic ways with TrackIR and VR, what's your point?

I'd much rather that the game be unrealistic in that regard, than not being able to pull high Gs at all.

 

I get it, you don't want realism, you want the game to be easy for you

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The so called g-warmup doesn't increase g-tolerance. It's performed to check the g-suit is connected and working properly AND to check your general status and tolerance for the day. .

 

Actually according the the good scientists in the PSD career field it does increase your G tolerance.

 

3.7. In-flight.

3.7.1. Performing a G Awareness Maneuver provides the following benefits:

3.7.1.1. Provides the opportunity to assess G-tolerance and allow for rehearsal of the AGSM in a low-threat environment.

3.7.1.2. Allows opportunity to check the G-suit (and COMBAT EDGE if applicable) connections and operation.

3.7.1.3. Recalibrates feel for application (onset) and control (peak level) aircraft G.

3.7.1.4. Provides an exposure to the cardiovascular system to activate the reflex response to a drop in blood pressure. A maneuver of 3 to 5G for at least 10 seconds is required to fully develop this reflex response

.

Google AIR FORCE PAMPHLET 11-419 for more info.

 

Now is what we have in DCS 100% correct...maybe, maybe not...But the simple fact they have modeled G warmups inflight and the effect it has in the ability to pull g in the game is an impressive detail.

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Every time a fighter pilot plays this game (that I've seen) they say the g tolerances are too low. ED has said they are looking into revamping the system. I'd say this answers OP's question.

 

I also remember ED saying they were gonna revamp it, but maybe some "refreshing" of their memory is needed :music_whistling:

 

Seeing that "lobbying" for change has worked in other aspects of DCS, I would really like to see a new G-model, personally.

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In the meantime, some FC3 jets pull over 12g without blacking out the pilot, while if you're in a DCS module it is lights-out right away. The F-15C can't hold 12+ g for long, but it can do 10-11g for quite a while without gloc'ing the pilot.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=245457&stc=1&d=1598103630

F15g.thumb.png.c7fcbb93bf7a7919e4f0bbecb34120b0.png

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You can already move your head in unrealistic ways with TrackIR and VR, what's your point?

I'd much rather that the game be unrealistic in that regard, than not being able to pull high Gs at all.

 

With TrackIR we could start to limit the view movements so that more you pull, less you can look horizontally but still maintain some capability to look up/down when your head is on the headrest.

 

In VR that is a NOGO because you can not separate camera from the actual HMD movement, so there is a another way for it, you start adding "the blinders" to other directions than forward, and more blinders when you do not have head "in the headrest".

 

The realistic kind effects for the G-effects can be simulated by creating these restrictions, that would force players to take a G-forces in count when flying, so one doesn't pull 9G while sitting tip of the seat while looking 190 degree backwards or continually around.

 

We as well need new other effects that could be used as well between various steps before G-LOC. But then again go straight to G-LOC without any warnings as well.

 

But the key here is that the simulation of the G-forces should be directly linked to the virtual pilot experiences, not to be same for all.

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I think there should be a G tolerance hook based on how many flight hours your logbook pilot has since their last death.

 

Boom.

 

Done.

 

Headed for the wishlist.

 

Check this out: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=262356

 

Your virtual pilot generates experience by the flight hours, good traps on carriers, targets destroyed, completed sorties etc. And such experience increase things like G-force capability (like growing capability from 7G to 9G withstanding)......

 

That is about many things that people has been lately discussing where they would like to see a risks in DCS for pilots so they wouldn't go make stupid things because they just can, but if you put their virtual pilot at the risk and possible kill it and lose all the time you spent to build its career, you start to avoid doing stupid things. It would generate immediately the stress and worry to players as they have something valuable to lose. And if you are flying with a new pilot against a experienced pilot, they have the edge like how much more G's they can be pulling or what kind other advantages they might have. So it is a trade between "easy target" and "high value target".

 

Some people just doesn't read this part: "ED virtual pilot roster for Hard Core 1 and Hard Core 2 server modes.". So it is not forced to anyone, it is just there to go and enable for the SP use in mission editor or as default for SP, or it can be a server setting that is activated and players who agree with it can join to the server.

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Level ups in a flight sim? No thanks.

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4th Gen Fighter maneuverability and pilot G tolerance

 

I set up some oil platforms in the Black Sea as a kind of maneuvering course. Try to approach at 500 knots and then turn as hard as possible with afterburner. I ran this course many times with various jets and had consistent results. I am not a content creator, but here you can see what I did from the cockpit.

 

The trk file was recorded from external view so I could see the g-loads through black screens. The mission is there too if you want to try it yourself. No warmups were performed to prep the "pilot" for the maneuver.

 

Aircraft, g-load, result

F18, 8.3, gloc

F16, 8.6, gloc

M2K, 8.6, gloc

F15, 10.6, tunnel vision onset

Su27, 7.7, black screen, no loss of consciousness

Mig29, 10.1, gloc

F15, 11.6, tunnel vision onset

 

For the Su27 I did not disable the g/aoa limiter (or whatever it is) because there is no way in heck I would be able to control it effectively for the procedure. That said, I was surprised at its poor performance.

 

The F15 is the outlier, but the result is consistent with how I've seen it performn in guns-only combat against human opponents.

 

 

test.miz

gloc.trk


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I haven't read the whole thing yet, but 9G for 30 seconds seems waaay too long, but maybe you are correct. Seems would be more like 5-10 seconds at 9X gravity.

 

Many want's to be like him.....

 

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Level ups in a flight sim? No thanks.

 

Of course many doesn't want to build a career and have risks and fear to lose their progress and feel about higher succession rate than others....

 

pilot_career.jpg.039322c9492062d599d2ecfbc7e0885e.jpg

 

It would be so bad that such a HC mode would exist in DCS that players could decide by themselves to use it, or to connect to a such servers when wanted, otherwise they would be free to pretend to be the best of the best pilots in the world without any limitations and fears for losing.

 

JANE'S will counter with an improved F15 campaign system, and an improved mission planner. JANE'S argue that the very best campaign system is more like a semi-dynamic system, where "a compelling series of missions combine to provide a sense of : 1) overall purpose, 2) progress and cause/effect due to the player's actions, 3) being part of a much larger world, where the actions of others have causal effect, not just your own, and 4) continuity through resource management (planes, ordnance, aircrews) and world integrity (dead things stay dead and regenerate over time as appropriate)."

 

The feel of a dynamic environment is paramount in creating believability and even raw "fun." And the dynamism of that environment extends to both simulation and interface. What I mean by the dynamism extending to the interface is the flow between missions and the form and frequency of supply of intelligence (debriefing, mission assessment, pilot records, mission planning elements etc.)

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Fri13, let me understand it.

Ex. you already have 400 hour career and then some random MP dude decided to land on you while you wait for INS. Would you then come up with another cool system to revive your pilot making complaints that it was not your fault?

You also want to handicap new pilots even more by giving the veterans ability to sustain higher Gs to make them even more godlike against poor noobs?

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Fri13, let me understand it.

Ex. you already have 400 hour career and then some random MP dude decided to land on you while you wait for INS. Would you then come up with another cool system to revive your pilot making complaints that it was not your fault?

 

Yes, you have a problem with that then do not join to such server where both are punished.

 

You also want to handicap new pilots even more by giving the veterans ability to sustain higher Gs to make them even more godlike against poor noobs?

 

Yes, if you have problem with that, do not fly against more experienced pilots that can lose it all on that pilot if they get killed by you. They have more to lose even if they could pull more etc.

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1) G-warm up.

2) Why are you using the paddle switch ? You basically cannot black out in a Hornet, if you know how to fly and fight

3)The F-15 reaches 10Gs because it has not limiter what so ever, unlike the Hornet (G limiter) and F-16 (AoA Limiter).

4)Do the same G as any of the other aircraft and pull for the same time and you will get the same G-lock in the F-15, you stopped pulling around a second before it usually goes in a g-lock for other aircraft

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How do you choose the server then? How do you know everyone will care as much as you for their life? How do you prevent someone from killing you on purpose just for fun?

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1) G-warm up.

2) Why are you using the paddle switch ? You basically cannot black out in a Hornet, if you know how to fly and fight

3)The F-15 reaches 10Gs because it has not limiter what so ever, unlike the Hornet (G limiter) and F-16 (AoA Limiter).

4)Do the same G as any of the other aircraft and pull for the same time and you will get the same G-lock in the F-15, you stopped pulling around a second before it usually goes in a g-lock for other aircraft

 

1) this test was without warmup, as specified in the op. It could be repeated with a warmup to see the difference.

 

2) because the point was to blackout the pilot. Without the paddle it wouldn't be possible in the f18

 

3) F15 reaches more than 11g with the turn performed more precisely.

 

4) turn was ended in the f15 because the 180 degree turn around the platforms was complete. The other fighters cannot match the maneuver without blacking out the pilot, even though the g load is lighter.

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How do you choose the server then?

 

Just like now, except you look for a "HC" in the server list to join on those servers that has the modes enabled.

 

How do you know everyone will care as much as you for their life?

 

Because everyone is going to have their virtual pilot life in a stake they have spent time to build up there is more players who want to get good capabilities?

 

How do you prevent someone from killing you on purpose just for fun?

 

As these are now just nitpicking for a settings that are about non-existing feature that would be defined if implemented it doesn't matter so much....

 

But how you do it? You can have example servers to have a X flight hours for the virtual pilot to be used on that server. So one can't just jump in with fresh new pilot that has 0 flight hours but need to use a pilot that has example 50 hours on it already. There could be a rank requirement or password requirement for validated players by other means as well like virtual squadrons like right now, but just have more extra for everyone to think about how to fly.

If someone is going to invest a such amount time and effort to just get a virtual pilot they could use once to ruin someones career.....

 

If you read more about it, everyone ED account has limited number of co-existing virtual pilots, that each has time restriction how often or what time it takes to replace them with a new one. So one would be fairly careful not to waste example 1 of 5 virtual pilots if it takes example 4 days to generate a new one to be used on HC server (meanwhile, you can go to fly on non-HC server as much you want). So if you would go and waste all 5 virtual pilots lives just for fun, you would have long time to wait to get to play again there.

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I can’t get behind this idea.

 

The last thing I want is to have to start “grinding” in DCS in order to get better G tolerance, access to special servers, etc. I quit playing games like WoW and Elite: Dangerous because of their grindy nature.

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Fri13, DCS is a flight sim, not Sims....

 

Looks like you are trying to make DCS into WT (the Russian WW2 MMO, you guys know what I am talking about)...

 

If you want something like this, just go and play WT...

 

You do realize that nobody here agrees with you right?

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And back to the topic, ED should just simply increase the G tolerance in DCS right now. End of story.

 

If you want to simulate "cannot turn your head under high Gs", just get pilot training and fly real planes.

 

The reason ppl are asking for higher (more realistic) G tolerance is because they want to max perform the aircraft, which is possible in RL.

 

DCS is about the aircraft, not the pilot. DCS is not a MMO or RPG.

 

Of course anyone can have their opinions about how the game should be. But I doubt most ppl in the community or ED will agree with you.

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I can’t get behind this idea.

 

The last thing I want is to have to start “grinding” in DCS in order to get better G tolerance, access to special servers, etc. I quit playing games like WoW and Elite: Dangerous because of their grindy nature.

 

Yeah, it reminds me to Escape From Tarkov. They try to be realistic which I am completely fine with, but then on top of that they add perks and level up with a huge grind that provides a great advantage so the streamers and no-lifers can sprint forever, carry more weight, have no recoil, etc.

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DCS is about the aircraft, not the pilot.

You can't disconnect one from the other. Currently we get the aircraft when pilot (or co-pilot/RIO/WSO...) jumps in and can gain control. But we cannot simulate the aircraft alone after the pilot dies or is otherwise incapable to control the aircraft - that would make no sense (unless drone piloting). All aside, the limits should be the same for everyone with the exception of G-suits not available to some historical planes, when they were simply non-existent (as I read before 1942) or just worse than modern ones so not that effective - it's getting complicated fast :)

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You can't disconnect one from the other. Currently we get the aircraft when pilot (or co-pilot/RIO/WSO...) jumps in and can gain control. But we cannot simulate the aircraft alone after the pilot dies or is otherwise incapable to control the aircraft - that would make no sense (unless drone piloting). All aside, the limits should be the same for everyone with the exception of G-suits not available to some historical planes, when they were simply non-existent (as I read before 1942) or just worse than modern ones so not that effective - it's getting complicated fast :)

 

I agree with you Draconus. But what I meant was that DCS is a flight sim and simulates mostly aircraft. The pilot simulation does not really exist in DCS at the moment, and it would be really complicated to simulate a pilot accurately since it involves a lot of factors such as physiology. I don't think there is a hardcore sim in the market right now that simulates human body.

 

What Fri13 was suggesting was not simulation, but a game leveling mechanic that involves a lot of grinding and role play, which is not what DCS is meant to be. There are plenty of MMOs like this such as WT and WOWs. No one wants to see DCS go down that route. Serously, bringing in leveling for a hardcore flight sim is probably the worst idea.

 

If ED wants to simulate pilot realistically in DCS. That is more than welcomed. But I doubt they will ever take that approach in the recent years. I mean currently we do not even have a pilot body in some of the modules we are flying.

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