Air 2 air dog fight, combat flaps

You may start in a boom and zoom surprise attack, all good and well but eventually it will end up with someone in a horizontal turn fight or a vertical up and down fight. My question is about the combat flaps! For a horizontal turn fight, when and how much do you use your flaps? In a vertical up/down fight when and how much do you use your flaps?

The absolute least amount possible.

 

If ever.

Until you master plane to high level, i would not use flaps in combat at all.

It is much easier to deploy flaps in very bad situation then other way around = flaps will get you killed in most cases.

Good dog fighting go by

 

 

Watched a great dogfighting video from Phil Styles who was swatting down AI left and right. I'm not at good at it AT ALL and need help, so my question came from this very video. I had noticed in horizontal turn fighting his flaps were maybe at 10% most of the time vs "do not use them at all" methods. P-47 labeled as a zoom and boom type fighter and me getting stuck in turns or up/down fights....this got me to ask the question. Waggs himself had commented a month before on this video on the P-47's wobbling nose while heavy elevator use and if he is watching Phil's video then I take Phil's methods as valid!!

 

Watched a great dogfighting video from Phil Styles who was swatting down AI left and right. I'm not at good at it AT ALL and need help, so my question came from this very video. I had noticed in horizontal turn fighting his flaps were maybe at 10% most of the time vs "do not use them at all" methods. P-47 labeled as a zoom and boom type fighter and me getting stuck in turns or up/down fights....this got me to ask the question. Waggs himself had commented a month before on this video on the P-47's wobbling nose while heavy elevator use and if he is watching Phil's video then I take Phil's methods as valid!!

 

Lol that doesn't mean Phil's methods are valid. That's quite the fallacy...

Plenty of DCS pilots use unrealistic tactics. But even then, the flight model is a decent bit work in progress so expect some handling aspects especially near stall and at stall to change.

Fowler flap systems are nearly all lift up to 8 to 12 degrees of deflection.

 

In a fight below 250 mph I will push out about 10 degrees in the P-47 and pull them back in when not pulling G.

 

You need to be able to do that without distracting yourself from your primary task

More of the same type technique from another source using P-51D which could also work with a P-47. I think it ts something that is from another pilots video.... proof there is something to it. It sure beats getting smoked AI after AI with no direction toward fighting.

 

 

...AND...

 

More of the same type technique from another source using P-51D which could also work with a P-47. I think it ts something that is from another pilots video.... proof there is something to it. It sure beats getting smoked AI after AI with no direction toward fighting.

 

 

...AND...

 

 

If the AI are consistently beating you, there are deeper problems to be resolved first.

 

An understanding of turn circle BFM and lift vector management is required. Once that is in place, you should be at least consistently neutral against AI opponents and, with practice, you should consistently beat them. Flaps can enhance good technique but they will not cover for poor technique in any way.

You are probably right sir! I totally appreciate the advise and will continue the learning...thanks.

As the Unicum P-47 War Thunder guide says, the P-47 is your All-American Muscle Car and not some JDM UFO.

 

If you are new, take full advantage of the P-47's strength (top speed, dive speed, energy retention). You fly, kill, run, and zoom in a straight line. Use flaps to do emergency evasion and nothing more.

 

If you are in a bad attack angle, resist the urge to turn with them and zoom back up to retain energy. You basically fly like a P-51, but you focus more on BnZ. Having a wingman will make your ordeal easier to handle.

Buying into the Boom n Zoom technique... dive and Boom no problem. Have a couple of questions mostly in the Zoom aspect. In Zoom and altitude recovery after shooting, should I use a small 10 degree flaps to aid or no flaps just the dive speed alone? What angle aspect should I put the plane in to have optimum altitude recovery? Thank you!!

I believe no flaps for a dive recovery is the way to go, flaps would just drag you more than help. You can try anyway and see the difference by yourself just in case.

 

With regards to angle, I don't think that's an easy question (it's not like anybody can tell you this or that angle in the HUD step ladder, right?) but P-47 usually climbs well but at a relatively shallow angle so I wouldn't put a too high nose for a recovery making you lose lots of energy unless you know your exact energy state compared to enemy, where the enemy is relative to you and where you will end up relative to him after zooming and hence you do it on purpose for sequential attacks or something like that. So shallow climbs and and more kind of hit and run tactic (but climbing) keeping your speed up instead of zooming at a steep angle and so losing lots of energy in the meantime unless you do it on purpose for a reason.

 

S!

Edited July 22, 2020 by Ala13_ManOWar

Thank you Ala13 ManOWar for your tip. I will use the no flaps on my Zoom execution. The reason I have been asking is clearly marked on the wing flap (exterior view) is 10, 20, 40. The 40 I guess is for landing (full), the 20 I guess is for takeoff (half)....what is the 10 for? Flaps are used in an aircraft for lift so why the 10? just asking... again thank you!

Thank you Ala13 ManOWar for your tip. I will use the no flaps on my Zoom execution. The reason I have been asking is clearly marked on the wing flap (exterior view) is 10, 20, 40. The 40 I guess is for landing (full), the 20 I guess is for takeoff (half)....what is the 10 for? Flaps are used in an aircraft for lift so why the 10? just asking... again thank you!

Well, I know PC flight sims tends to kind of "standardise" those things, but that's not exactly how flaps works IRL. Usually there's settings most pilots use, or recommended in the manual of course, but it's not so closed "this is for this, this is for that". Usually in T/O there's no need for flaps unless the runway is very short or you're quite loaded, so you might use 10º in a short runway, or 20º as you say to T/O with a heavy payload, and that's it since they produce more drag than the somewhat beneficial lift you seek there. Even the "obvious" setting 40º for landing is not so, you might use 40º to land regularly but given a medium or heavy crosswind for instance you shouldn't use it to full extension at all, might be 30º or even less in severe conditions. Well, yes I know it doesn't matter since you hit refly after a crash, right? but that's what classic theory says about flaps and it's quite right so whenever you try to use it "correctly" that's how it's supposed to be. You might land with just 20 or even 10º in a long runway with plenty of room, there's no flaps police to tell you to do it otherwise, and aircraft behaviour doing it one way or the other is quite different. Just try a few landings with different settings and you'll see the huge difference and why they are there.

 

S!

Edited July 22, 2020 by Ala13_ManOWar

I would not use diving as viable tactics in p-47, diving in p-47 was pretty nasty, something similar to p-38 not that bad. Diving flaps in later models solved this issue.

Well, I know PC flight sims tends to kind of "standardise" those things, but that's not exactly how flaps works IRL. Usually there's settings most pilots use, or recommended in the manual of course, but it's not so closed "this is for this, this is for that". Usually in T/O there's no need for flaps unless the runway is very short or you're quite loaded, so you might use 10º in a short runway, or 20º as you say to T/O with a heavy payload, and that's it since they produce more drag than the somewhat beneficial lift you seek there. Even the "obvious" setting 40º for landing is not so, you might use 40º to land regularly but given a medium or heavy crosswind for instance you shouldn't use it to full extension at all, might be 30º or even less in severe conditions. Well, yes I know it doesn't matter since you hit refly after a crash, right? but that's what classic theory says about flaps and it's quite right so whenever you try to use it "correctly" that's how it's supposed to be. You might land with just 20 or even 10º in a long runway with plenty of room, there's no flaps police to tell you to do it otherwise, and aircraft behaviour doing it one way or the other is quite different. Just try a few landings with different settings and you'll see the huge difference and why they are there.

 

S!

 

I assume you are talking about flying a Cessna 172 or some such but even then you are not accurate.

 

Crosswinds do not factor into flap selection on landing. Flap selection on takeoff is determined by the length of runway, type of runway and the obstacles present.

Buying into the Boom n Zoom technique... dive and Boom no problem. Have a couple of questions mostly in the Zoom aspect. In Zoom and altitude recovery after shooting, should I use a small 10 degree flaps to aid or no flaps just the dive speed alone? What angle aspect should I put the plane in to have optimum altitude recovery? Thank you!!

 

The energy state of the bandit determines your post shooting technique. If his energy state is nearly equal yours at the moment of merge, a level extension is in order, assuming velocity vectors are basically aligned at the merge. If he is a grape (no energy) and you managed to NOT kill him the first time, you can pull 9 G and zoom straight up assuming you are confident there are no other bandits.

 

As in all BFM, the bandit determines what you do.

 

If you are maneuvering without reference to the bandit's current position and energy state, you are not engaged in BFM. You are putting on an airshow.

 

Decide what you do based on what the bandit is doing and can possibly do next.

I assume you are talking about flying a Cessna 172 or some such but even then you are not accurate.

 

Crosswinds do not factor into flap selection on landing. Flap selection on takeoff is determined by the length of runway, type of runway and the obstacles present.

Any aircraft is affected by crosswind landings. Nothing changes with the kind of aircraft if you are landing with strong crosswinds and gusts which will make you stall at a regular landing speed and worsened by full flaps. It's a pilot's tests regular question indeed. I guess FAA or EASA might be wrong asking that :thumbup: .

 

 

S!

Any aircraft is affected by crosswind landings. Nothing changes with the kind of aircraft if you are landing with strong crosswinds and gusts which will make you stall at a regular landing speed and worsened by full flaps. It's a pilot's tests regular question indeed. I guess FAA or EASA might be wrong asking that :thumbup: .

 

 

S!

 

You don't have any clue what you are talking about.

 

The argument about partial flaps on landing in a strong crosswind is because partial flaps make the rollout easier to control.

 

Instructors didn't want Captain Fumble Fingers retracting flaps on rollout so they started this silly partial flaps landing in a crosswind business.

 

Strictly low time private pilot level stuff and not the brightest idea in any case. If you can't handle the aircraft in a crosswind, your poor decision making and planning has written a check your skill level can't cash.

 

Put the flaps at full and carry 1/2 the gust factor as extra speed, the way the professionals do.

Flaps are used for lift and drag, hence they are mainly used for take off and landing in regards to field length, surface, density altitude and weight of aircraft.

 

In a cessna on take off for example: a short field take off may be done with 10 or 20 degree flap (i cant remember) and stick back to keep the nose wheel from dragging on the ground.

 

on a long paved runway no flap may be used if you're not concerned about length used but this is down to pilot judgement for small aircraft where there is a lot of runway to use.

 

additionally on landing, flaps are generally standardised in manuals according to techniques.

 

for a deadstick landing you would obtain best glide, pick a field and then use the flaps to bring back the touchdown point if you're slightly high.

 

as for wind, in a stable approach with a crosswind it is generally not factored in for flaps useage however in gusty conditions they sometimes are but again this depends on the type of field you're landing on and the aircraft you're flying.

 

The DCS P51 manual notes normal landings, gusty conditions and crosswinds.

for normal it suggests full flap

for gusty it suggests half flap and higher speed

for crosswind no mention of flap is made but it does note to dip a wing, this to me indicates normal flap usage

 

as for taxiing i would suggest raising the flaps as they definately have an effect which is just undeniable, in standard tailwheel technique you use stick forwards when taxiing with a tailwind to present it with more surface to push on and hence keep the tail down, flaps are going to act in the same way, as well as possibly reducing breaking effectiveness.

 

another thing to note is the type of flaps an aircraft have, different aircraft may have different flaps which vary in the amount of drag and lift they give, where the p47 and p51 have variable angle flaps, the spitfire does not, either full up or full down.

 

 

 

Another way to think about it is the difference between wheeler landings and 3 pointers, wheelers are normally done when the wind conditions are sufficient to warrent this type of landing to retain controlability and lift. in this technique you use higher speeds to ride through the conditions.

 

an example of this is in the tiger moth which has no flaps but accepts a 5-10mph speed increase on a wheeler landing.

 

 

the tldr for gusty conditions is this:

specific aircraft have specific techniques, for the p51 its less flap and higher speed in gusty conditions. some aircraft do not specify gusty conditions for flaps, in which case either assume the same as normal or use the conditions for wheeler landings. (for t/w aircraft)

Edited July 23, 2020 by zcrazyx

You don't have any clue what you are talking about.

Yeah, maybe. I guess my instructors were all very bad by fulfilling and teaching what the theory says and you're examined about both written and in the air. I can't tell anything beyond that, I know was I was taught.

 

Put the flaps at full and carry 1/2 the gust factor as extra speed, the way the professionals do.

Well yeah if you have that kind of info, not usually available in small GA aerodromes, gusts derived from close buildings included. Yes, an airliner can afford things smaller aircraft don't, but we are talking here about P-47, not that small but not a plenty of extra power jet either :thumbup: . Luckily this is still a sim, so no problem you try, you crash, you refly either using one method or the other.

 

S!

 

Watched a great dogfighting video from Phil Styles who was swatting down AI left and right. I'm not at good at it AT ALL and need help, so my question came from this very video. I had noticed in horizontal turn fighting his flaps were maybe at 10% most of the time vs "do not use them at all" methods.

That was AI, so forget what you've seen:) Using flap on a P-47 can lead to a bad habbit of trying to dogfight and "get him" with players. Thats my opinion.

Instructors didn't want Captain Fumble Fingers retracting flaps on rollout so they started this silly partial flaps landing in a crosswind business.

It is one of the benefits. It is also important to have better controllability and aircraft response to your control inputs. Some acft have less max xwind limit for full flaps landing for that reason.

Strong crosswind usually is not just strong, its gusty. So now tell me like a "pro", when will you have a higher lift force increment when gust hits you? Obviously, when you have full flaps rather than partial or no flaps. The more lift change, the more "bumpness" you will experience. And finally, to execute a go around, especially on P-47, lower flap setting will require less power thus less rebalancing issues of an unstable by nature P-47.

Put the flaps at full and carry 1/2 the gust factor as extra speed, the way the professionals do.

Proessionals dont speak in such a manner.

Pre HUD ladder

 

As reported by a member of Grim Reapers group this is my representation of what a early non HUD version of a ladder would be in a horizontal horizon in a P-47. Use for bombing dive angles and climbing angles in a ZOOM.