Fight's On! DCS: F-14 Update

:matrix: Just seen this.

https://www.slothgifts.com/hph-nug

Thought it was so cool I've ordered one

IKR, I don't get it either..... :wassat:

i guess they like compressor stalls....

I'm happy with the B model.

As a Tomcat fan, i like everything about. And if the guys and girls that flew it, had to deal with them, i want to deal with them as well.

The F-14 might end up a sealclubber, so I can see servers limiting teams to the A version. I want to move some mud though :D

Nah, probably not. The F-15, the Su-27 and the F-14B are probably in the same league performance wise (not avionics wise though). However i think we both know what the servers are going to ban pretty soon..... those big underbelly buffaloes.....especially if the ECCM version is modeled.

 

It's not crazy, I am more excited about the F-14A than the F-14B (though I plan to love them both!).

 

The reasoning is simple:

 

The F-14A was the F-14. It was the only model for the first ~15 years of operations and continued to be roughly half of the F-14 fleet through 2001. To understand the F-14 you need to understand the F-14A IMHO.

 

Also, the F-14A was the model of the F-14's heyday. It was also the model of F-14 that I saw growing up. I want to know what it was like to fly her even of the F-14B performs better.

 

Lastly, my favorite parts of DCS and flight sims is the basic stick and rudder stuff. The F-14A offers endless enjoyment because those aspects are challenging, but rewarding. In addition the difficult low speed handling of the F-14A/B with AFCS (especially in the approach configuration), the finicky engines add another layer of challenge and interest to handling the aircraft. I like aircraft that are hard to fly and reward the investment learning them. The F-14A epitomizes this IMHO.

Pretty much this! :thumbup:

I see where your coming from. The Mig-21 is different and can be difficult to fly. It's Challenging higher approach speeds for landings etc. And I really enjoy that. If your a Tomcat fan then your going to love all its imperfections as well.

Precisely! :thumbup:

Two things:

 

2) The roll rate on the bird seems very excessive for such a big bird. Did she really roll that fast?

 

I think i read somewhere that with the proper inputs you could actually over stress the thing, so it was eventually limited (with the digital controls) as to how much roll rate you could generate. Anyways, of the top of my head, even if not the greatest roller with its wings out, you could still generate insane instantaneous rolls by snap rolling. I once used the NASA generated wind tunnel date to simulate this in BMS and by gods the thing could get a 180 in a blink of a time. Dunno what this would do to the air frame though....

I think from a game play perspective the B will fit in better with the other 4th gen fighters we are getting along with the FC3 one's. But I also think using the F-14A in the mid 1970's would be fascinating to see it work in an era where there is not even F-15A's and F-16A's, where the F-4 and the F-5 still played a main role as a fighter. Also fighting against the new available MiG-23's in the A or fighting against the new available MiG-29's and Su-27's is a big difference! Just my humble opinion though...

If not to much of a bother, search this forum for a thread named "f-14 low speed prowess over other planes" or something like that. There were quite a few EM chart overlays in that one, illustrating that even the A could hold its own against other birds of that generation. Everything pre 15/27/29 was just no match in a straight up fight. You could still beat it through "smart" flying, but that is always the case with every opponent. :thumbup:

EDIT: found it, there it is:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140557

guess I'm slow. don't get it.

I think what he's trying to say is that if you fly it in a way that won't cause compressor stalls, then you won't get compressor stalls! :pilotfly:

I found some F-14 HUD footage on youtube that Heatblur may want to review. It is from an undated airshow over NAS Moffett Field, which was closed in 1994, so it is from 1994 or earlier.

I'd specifically like to highlight starting at 5:04 in the video where the F-14 rapidly pulls up and performs several rolls. the pitch ladder is noticeably juddery, but it appears to be much smoother than the HUD in Heatblur's video. I don't think this is simply a difference in shaders.

If you watch earlier parts of the video, you can see the pitch ladder jumping a bit during gentle maneuvers, but these jumps appear to be caused primarily by a step function rather than refresh rate, otherwise the HUD would be less smooth during rapid maneuvering.

(Disclaimer, I'm not an F-14 expert, but it looked like a discrepancy to me)

(Also I realize this is pre-alpha, but it costs less time/money to solve potential problems the sooner they are caught, so consider it a service, not a complaint :) )

(edit 3: didn't notice the similar comments in the other thread until now)

I think what he's trying to say is that if you fly it in a way that won't cause compressor stalls, then you won't get compressor stalls! :pilotfly:

Pretty much.

There are three things that cause a compressor stall for an F-14A:

1. low speed, high AoA flow divergence

2. gross throttle manipulation

3. high speed without the inlet ramps set on AUTO

3 is an easy fix. 2 requires you not to be an imbecile with the levers. 1 is the hard part, but it's not so hard when you think about what causes a compressor stall- either too much suck, not enough blow, or not enough suck to force out what's burning. In either event, the turbine is choking.

So what do you do?

You choke it, just like a choke valve on an engine. And with a FADEC-less jet engine, that's managed by your throttle because while the fuel consumption out back ultimately drives the compressor stages, if there's not enough actual flow through, you're just building heat, not thrust.

Which means you fly the engine, as many described the process as. If you know you're going into a high AoA situation that is going to slow you down to effectively a crawl- ie, as you go over the top in the vertical ending less than 150 knots, if you're in blower you reduce power in a smooth fashion. As you generate airspeed back and need to accelerate for further maneuvering, you reapply power gradually- two seconds or more forward, or back. Come out of AB with control. Go back in the same way. If you match the engine setting to the nature of the flow extremes you're presenting it, it won't stall.

Choke a compressor to not choke a compressor.

Thats a pretty nice writeup lunaticfringe. I wonder if the same practice can be applied to the Viggen in high alpha situations to help with compressor stall.

(Don't have the Viggen yet, waiting for a sale, or my birthday. Whichever comes first :) )

Brilliant! Thank you so much for sharing! That refresh rate looks horrible, but if this is realistic, then good job on modelling it. I knew it was bad on the F-14 but not this bad :D

Pretty much.

 

There are three things that cause a compressor stall for an F-14A:

 

1. low speed, high AoA flow divergence

2. gross throttle manipulation

3. high speed without the inlet ramps set on AUTO

 

3 is an easy fix. 2 requires you not to be an imbecile with the levers. 1 is the hard part, but it's not so hard when you think about what causes a compressor stall- either too much suck, not enough blow, or not enough suck to force out what's burning. In either event, the turbine is choking.

 

So what do you do?

 

You choke it, just like a choke valve on an engine. And with a FADEC-less jet engine, that's managed by your throttle because while the fuel consumption out back ultimately drives the compressor stages, if there's not enough actual flow through, you're just building heat, not thrust.

 

Which means you fly the engine, as many described the process as. If you know you're going into a high AoA situation that is going to slow you down to effectively a crawl- ie, as you go over the top in the vertical ending less than 150 knots, if you're in blower you reduce power in a smooth fashion. As you generate airspeed back and need to accelerate for further maneuvering, you reapply power gradually- two seconds or more forward, or back. Come out of AB with control. Go back in the same way. If you match the engine setting to the nature of the flow extremes you're presenting it, it won't stall.

 

Choke a compressor to not choke a compressor.

Its also really easy to stall when flying "unclean" ie. yawing, especially at low speeds/high AoA right?

Also i understand its way more stall resistant at high power settings?

It would be very nice if the HUD refresh rate could be implemented as optional.

For those who choose the realistic option, it might be slower. But some people might find it disturbing so they can have the option to have it flawless.

Great vid Cobra, can't wait for this, the drool pool is getting excessive now :D

It would be very nice if the HUD refresh rate could be implemented as optional.

 

For those who choose the realistic option, it might be slower. But some people might find it disturbing so they can have the option to have it flawless.

there's already an option for that it's called "GAME MODE" :D

it's a sim and should be modeled and give as close to the real experience as possible, if you can't handle it then don't use use it, the real thing / pilots didn't have a switch to a flawless option so why should we :D idon't recall any stories of pilots reporting back "sorry sir I can't fly this the HUD is too jittery my flawless switch is borked"

It would be very nice if the HUD refresh rate could be implemented as optional.

 

For those who choose the realistic option, it might be slower. But some people might find it disturbing so they can have the option to have it flawless.

This is why we can't have nice things :music_whistling:

(re)read Cobra's statement. The HUD is WIP and will look much better in the finished module, even though it's refresh change will not change much. If at that time you still have a problem with it, then you can always use game mode, or a user made MOD of which Im sure there will be many available soon after the module is released.

it's a sim

It's also an Entertainment software so adding an option will help others and not forcing you to activate the option.

All good don't you think?

Great vid Cobra, can't wait for this, the drool pool is getting excessive now :D

 

 

 

 

there's already an option for that it's called "GAME MODE" :D

it's a sim and should be modeled and give as close to the real experience as possible, if you can't handle it then don't use use it, the real thing / pilots didn't have a switch to a flawless option so why should we :D idon't recall any stories of pilots reporting back "sorry sir I can't fly this the HUD is too jittery my flawless switch is borked"

I am not saying that it should be flawless for everyone. It can be optional. If you want to fly it realistic then do it. But having choices does not hurt anyone.

Imagine a person who loves the module but HUD gives him headache or dizzyness this way. Why ruin his fun? Let him choose what he likes. I do not agree with your statement "if you cant handle it dont use it". People should use it however they like to. It is their choices and their fun.

Its also really easy to stall when flying "unclean" ie. yawing, especially at low speeds/high AoA right?

Anything at high AoA that causes substantial flow divergence from the inlet at a substantially higher throttle setting than proper will cause a compressor stall.

Also i understand its way more stall resistant at high power settings?

Only if you're fast enough. Higher power settings aren't going to help you if you're doing 120 knots and reefing the pole back and then tap a pedal to a point where the flow isn't capable of moving the heat- then all you get is a compressor stall. See: Hultgreen.

Great vid Cobra, can't wait for this, the drool pool is getting excessive now :D

 

 

 

 

there's already an option for that it's called "GAME MODE" :D

it's a sim and should be modeled and give as close to the real experience as possible, if you can't handle it then don't use use it, the real thing / pilots didn't have a switch to a flawless option so why should we :D idon't recall any stories of pilots reporting back "sorry sir I can't fly this the HUD is too jittery my flawless switch is borked"

There's quite a bit of difference between a gamey setting and giving users an option to reduce issues due to low frame rate. Personally, I get migraines sent straight from hell if I am experiencing anything below 20 FPS for a long duration. I physically cannot watch normal television for long periods at all due to this. The YouTube video demonstrating the HUD was physically painful for me.

If this isn't an option. The F-14 will be an instant no-buy for me.

Let them correct the speed for the elements that need it, as Cobra has already stated multiple times- then decide.

Personally, I get migraines sent straight from hell if I am experiencing anything below 20 FPS for a long duration. I physically cannot watch normal television for long periods at all due to this. The YouTube video demonstrating the HUD was physically painful for me.

 

If this isn't an option. The F-14 will be an instant no-buy for me.

Refer to the video of a real F-14 HUD I linked in my previous post. The motion of the pitch ladder is substantially smoother on the real thing during rapid maneuvers, so it may be less jarring to you since that is the dominant element in the HUD. Otherwise you may need to set it to a backup gunsight mode and fly by cockpit instruments.

Only if you're fast enough. Higher power settings aren't going to help you if you're doing 120 knots and reefing the pole back and then tap a pedal to a point where the flow isn't capable of moving the heat- then all you get is a compressor stall. See: Hultgreen.

That example came half way through reading your response. Alas, you thought if it as well.

What about in a more energy dynamic environment? Like setting the power at 90% mil or zone 1 and then going through the egg, but not actually inducing any side slip? Is a change is power still warranted to avoid the compressor stall or will the engine hold?

P.S. when i mean a compressor stall here, i mean the fatal one, that could cause a flame out or an explosion, not the self recovering mini stalls that were also often encountered.

Refer to the video of a real F-14 HUD I linked in my previous post. The motion of the pitch ladder is substantially smoother on the real thing during rapid maneuvers, so it may be less jarring to you since that is the dominant element in the HUD. Otherwise you may need to set it to a backup gunsight mode and fly by cockpit instruments.

I also checked a real life HUD video and I also thought it was much smoother than what we can see in this video. Then again, it's pre pre pre alpha.

I also checked a real life HUD video and I also thought it was much smoother than what we can see in this video. Then again, it's pre pre pre alpha.

Yeah but you have to realize that video is running at 24.7 FPS (or perhaps even lower) and DCS World runs at 60 FPS. With that difference the jarring effect is much larger. Like Cobra said, they will compensate for it. so please don't judge prematurely, because the only effect of that will be that the developers will show us fewer development videos.

Yeah but you have to realize that video is running at 24.7 FPS (or perhaps even lower) and DCS World runs at 60 FPS. With that difference the jarring effect is much larger. Like Cobra said, they will compensate for it. so please don't judge prematurely, because the only effect of that will be that the developers will show us fewer development videos.

Yeah if there isn't an option for the hud refresh rate to be matched to frame rate out of the box. It's a no-buy. I love the LNS guys (headblur or w/e they are now). I love the MiG-21. Haven't gotten the Viggen but I know the quality is there. I simply cannot have a hobby become a medical issue. These migraines put me out of commission for days. I have a business to run and a family to take care of. I really don't think it's an unreasonable request. If there are concerns for multiplayer make it enforceable server side. :)

Yeah if there isn't an option for the hud refresh rate to be matched to frame rate out of the box. It's a no-buy. I love the LNS guys (headblur or w/e they are now). I love the MiG-21. Haven't gotten the Viggen but I know the quality is there. I simply cannot have a hobby become a medical issue. These migraines put me out of commission for days. I have a business to run and a family to take care of. I really don't think it's an unreasonable request. If there are concerns for multiplayer make it enforceable server side. :)

Once again you are prejudging something that is still WIP. Are you so certain that the final result will be something that can cause "medical issues"?

I think Gary knows it's still WIP, but the vertical scale's refresh rate won't change that much.

I believe that the setting should exist, since most players seem to play single-player, and because this HUD is becoming a problem.

It's not becoming a problem at all yet, because it's not finished.

Amusingly, there's already a built-fix to the HUD for those with issues over the pitch lines: the Declutter mode.

Just for fun, lets have the same conversation about another topic.

Chef (developer with funny hat): we are cooking your chicken and here is a quick glance at how its done and what spices we plan to use.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: my god! Have you noticed that the chicken isn't fully cooked?

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: But it's undercooked, I don't like under-cooked chicken.

Chef (developer with funny hat ): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't eat undercooked chicken, I'll get sick.

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it fully.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: But it's not cooked yet!

Chef (developer with funny hat on): Yes, we are cooking it but decided to show you the kitchen. You see the crackling heat and rising stream right? It is still cooking.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't take the chance of getting sick, I demand prophylactic antibiotics so I won't get sick.

Chef (developer with funny hat): You don't need drugs, we are going to fully cook your chicken.

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #3: Under cooked chicken is going to be such a problem around here - why won't the chef cook it.

Chef (developer with funny hat): That's why we are cooking it!

This keeps up and no one gets to the see the kitchen for rather obvious reasons.

Please wait till things are done before commenting on done-ness. Heatblur has seen all of the same videos and they plan to make it look just like those. If you are playing the module in early access and have serious problems, please let them know.

Otherwise, please remain seated while they cook the chicken!

-Nick

because this HUD is becoming a problem.

Definitely not a problem (at least not yet :)). Please stop watching the videos if this causes anxiety.

-Nick