Can someone explain the RB 24/74 procedure

The manual says:

1. Weapon selector: IR-RB (or press IR missile fast select).

2. Sight mode selector: Set target wingspan.

3. Master mode selector: Mode ANF.

4. Radar mode selector: Mode A1 or A2.

5. Aim at the target visually and engage radar lock by pulling the fix trigger to

the first detent (T1)

6. Confirm sidewinder growling tone. Adjust volume if necessary.

7. Uncage seeker if needed (manoeuvring target).

8. Trigger: UNSAFE and fire on sidewinder steady tone, if distance line indicates

inside of max range or wing span markers envelop the target (when not

using radar ranging).

9. Trigger: SAFE and master mode: NAV.

OK:

2. What actual difference does this make?

4. Does this have any purpose apart from (theoretically) being able to see a target?

5. I hit T1 but I can't see that it does anything. What is supposed to happen?

8. When is distance line supposed to appear?

Also, what are the 2 HUD modes - as per attachments. I can't see what brings up the 2nd one which has presumably distancing info. Can't see anything in the manual for that HUD symbology. Also can't tell what removes that HUD and brings up the standard one (attachment 1). What does the number on the left of the HUD in standard mode mean?

Bit confused!

The manual says:

1. Weapon selector: IR-RB (or press IR missile fast select).

2. Sight mode selector: Set target wingspan.

3. Master mode selector: Mode ANF.

4. Radar mode selector: Mode A1 or A2.

5. Aim at the target visually and engage radar lock by pulling the fix trigger to

the first detent (T1)

6. Confirm sidewinder growling tone. Adjust volume if necessary.

7. Uncage seeker if needed (manoeuvring target).

8. Trigger: UNSAFE and fire on sidewinder steady tone, if distance line indicates

inside of max range or wing span markers envelop the target (when not

using radar ranging).

9. Trigger: SAFE and master mode: NAV.

 

OK:

2. What actual difference does this make?

4. Does this have any purpose apart from (theoretically) being able to see a target?

5. I hit T1 but I can't see that it does anything. What is supposed to happen?

8. When is distance line supposed to appear?

 

Also, what are the 2 HUD modes - as per attachments. I can't see what brings up the 2nd one which has presumably distancing info. Can't see anything in the manual for that HUD symbology. Also can't tell what removes that HUD and brings up the standard one (attachment 1). What does the number on the left of the HUD in standard mode mean?

Bit confused!

Don't know if I can explain it the right way, but I´ll try :)

2. When set and the target plane is "wider" than the sight you are within range, i think.

5. When it locks the horizontal line will get shorter the closer you get and within the two vertical lines you are within range.

Maybe it wasn't any help, I don't really now how to explain it. But thats the way I think it is working :)

Best regards,

M

OK:

2. What actual difference does this make?- I don't use it

4. Does this have any purpose apart from (theoretically) being able to see a target?- doesn't matter for me. I still get kills w/o it

Thanks guys, but still, I can’t see the answers to some questions.

4. There must be some point to the radar as it is mentioned in 8.

5. Still can’t see what pressing T1 does. Pressing Tv brings up the different hud symbology, but T1 does nothing that I can see. What has to be pressed to move to another target and get back the default hud symbology? (Seems random to me!)

8. Mentions ‘when not using radar ranging’. What does that mean?

Also, what about the last para in my first post?

Engaging the radar, allows for you to have the range lines at the bottom of the HUD to cue you on when you are in range. Otherwise you are using the range gate in the hug, the targets wingspan, and your best guess on when the target is in range. Obviously radar ranging is more accurate.

I haven't flown A2A in the Viggen in a while, IIRC you hold T1 to keep the radar fixed on the current target. Releasing it, going to T2 (or is that TV where it's released, it's been a while), gets you back to normal symbology.

So you questions in order:

2) Setting the wingspan allows you to visually estimate the targets range without needing to use the radar. So if you can't get a radar contact on the target the only thing you have to estimate the target being in range is the gate on the HUD.

4) A1 is the PPI radar view, A2 is the b-scope. If you knew for a fact that your target was supposed to be in a certain area, that you had a nav point over going A2 would theoretically give you more resolution to try and find them.

5) When you press T1, you can slew your radar cursor over a target, you should then get the range lines on the bottom of the HUD. You aren't locking it in the sense you would a in the F-15, rather you are using the radar to generate a distance. You have to move the radar cursor to stay with the target. It's mainly useful for large AC you are chasing down, or set it so you can look at your radar screen to see when you're in range. If the target is in sight, put the wing span marker on the target, and pull and hold T1, it will range the target continually for you so long as you have it under the marker.

8) The distance line indicates when you're in range. if it's wider than the two hash marks you are too far away. If you are between the hash marks the missile can fly to that distance and hit a non-manuevering target. If the line is flashing you are too close to launch (the missile wont be able to track).

Also, what are the 2 HUD modes - as per attachments. I can't see what brings up the 2nd one which has presumably distancing info. Can't see anything in the manual for that HUD symbology. Also can't tell what removes that HUD and brings up the standard one (attachment 1). What does the number on the left of the HUD in standard mode mean?

Bit confused!

The first HUD is going to IR mod or hitting the fast missile button. The gate in the middle of the screen is set with the targets wingspan (you have to do this) to help you estimate the targets range. The second HUD is when you use the radar and hold to T1 to generate a range. Letting go of T1 will go back to the first one. The number on the HUD on the left is your altitude in meters.

There are 2 ways of looking at this.

Firstly, forget about trying to understand this targeting, place the target in middle of gate, get the high-pitched sound, then fire. 9 times out of 10 I get a hit.

Or, secondly, try and understand what is going on!

Engaging the radar, allows for you to have the range lines at the bottom of the HUD to cue you on when you are in range. Otherwise you are using the range gate in the hug, the targets wingspan, and your best guess on when the target is in range. Obviously radar ranging is more accurate.

Does the high-pitched sound not provide enough guidance? Is the radar purely for sighting targets?

I haven't flown A2A in the Viggen in a while, IIRC you hold T1 to keep the radar fixed on the current target. Releasing it, going to T2 (or is that TV where it's released, it's been a while), gets you back to normal symbology.

This is a major area of confusion for me. Holding T1 does nothing for me. To get the HUD as shown on my attachment 2 in post #1, I have to press Tv. As far as I can see, it doesn't hold the radar fixed on the target. Releasing T1 or Tv does nothing. To get the default gate HUD back, I seem to have to hold T0 or T1, then a couple of seconds later, the HUD goes back to the gate.

So you questions in order:

 

2) Setting the wingspan allows you to visually estimate the targets range without needing to use the radar. So if you can't get a radar contact on the target the only thing you have to estimate the target being in range is the gate on the HUD.

4) A1 is the PPI radar view, A2 is the b-scope. If you knew for a fact that your target was supposed to be in a certain area, that you had a nav point over going A2 would theoretically give you more resolution to try and find them.

5) When you press T1, you can slew your radar cursor over a target, you should then get the range lines on the bottom of the HUD. You aren't locking it in the sense you would a in the F-15, rather you are using the radar to generate a distance. You have to move the radar cursor to stay with the target. It's mainly useful for large AC you are chasing down, or set it so you can look at your radar screen to see when you're in range. If the target is in sight, put the wing span marker on the target, and pull and hold T1, it will range the target continually for you so long as you have it under the marker.

8) The distance line indicates when you're in range. if it's wider than the two hash marks you are too far away. If you are between the hash marks the missile can fly to that distance and hit a non-manuevering target. If the line is flashing you are too close to launch (the missile wont be able to track).

2) Can't see why setting a wingspan should make any difference to the range of a missile. Surely, a distance is a distance!

5) Unless I'm missing something, I can't see the point of all that. I mean, if you are in visual range, is there any need to get all this radar info? Won't the HUD markers in configuration #2 (from post #1) tell you that?

Another thing is, sometimes I see a target circle, and other times not. When or why does that appear.

What is the point - in practical terms - of the uncage state?

Sorry if I missing something here, but I can't see why any of this is a benefit compared to what I said above was the first option! I do want to understand though.

The first HUD is going to IR mod or hitting the fast missile button. The gate in the middle of the screen is set with the targets wingspan (you have to do this) to help you estimate the targets range. The second HUD is when you use the radar and hold to T1 to generate a range. Letting go of T1 will go back to the first one. The number on the HUD on the left is your altitude in meters.

As partially described above, this just doesn't work for me. Holding T1 does nothing. The only way I get that 2nd HUD up is by pressing Tv. Letting go also does nothing. The symbols still remain. The only way of going back to the first HUD is to press and hold for a second T0 or T1. Sorry, I've already said that above.

Any further enlightenment appreciated!

Does the high-pitched sound not provide enough guidance? Is the radar purely for sighting targets?

No, it does NOT provide any range guidance as the missiles seeker range is not the same as the missile range. The missile seeker can detect and lock targets beyond the actual missile range, depending on own and enemy flight state. The sound signal just provides seeker lock guidance, which is different than missile range guidance.

2) Can't see why setting a wingspan should make any difference to the range of a missile. Surely, a distance is a distance!

Distance is distance, correct, but how do you know the distance? Sure, you can guess the distance, but if you set the wingspan accordingly, you have a a much more precise distance indicator, to determine if you are in missile range or not.

5) Unless I'm missing something, I can't see the point of all that. I mean, if you are in visual range, is there any need to get all this radar info? Won't the HUD markers in configuration #2 (from post #1) tell you that?

The wingspan markers are used when there is no radar lock available. If you have a radar lock, then you use the range indication of the radar, which is much more precise and can display missile range dynamically, depending on your own and the enemy flight state.

Another thing is, sometimes I see a target circle, and other times not. When or why does that appear.

What is the point - in practical terms - of the uncage state?

The circle appears if you uncage the missile seeker. The circle will then show you where the missile seeker is looking at. If the missile seeker locks onto a target the circle will follow the target.

Thanks for that.

Of course, I understand what you are saying in principle, but in practice, I am struggling.

So, I load up the IA Airborne Intercept, which is a great mission to try out everything to do with sidewinders. Keep labels on so I can see what's happening, and put on unlimited weapons in ME.

This is what happens:

1) Select weapon

2) set wingspan to 50m for IL 76.

3) Master mode to ANF

4) Radar A1

5) Visually see (and radar see) targets. Get behind them.

6) From about 5 miles get solid high pitched growling.

7) make the real wings fill the set wingspan gap. I am now 0.4 miles from target. Fire. Plane down. 0.4 miles? Really?

8) Decided to try a different technique on another target.

9) Solid tone from about 4 miles

10) Pressing T1 does nothing.

11) Pressing Tv brings up HUD #2 and radar goes off. (Still can't see what this HUD actually does in terms of added functionality, or why it's there.)

12) When real wings are at wingspan range bars, I am 1.4 miles from target. (I must be doing something wrong as in first method I needed to be 0.4 miles away.) Fire missile. Aircraft down.

Don't get how to radar lock, as all my targeting seems to rely on physically having the target between the markers on the HUD. Any deviation, and the high pitched growling is lost.

In order to get back to HUD #1, I seem to have to press T1 and then after a few seconds it comes back.

Still confused. No mention of HUD #2 in Viggen manual section p356-358. No mention of most of this in Chuck's Guide.

11) Pressing Tv brings up HUD #2 and radar goes off. (Still can't see what this HUD actually does in terms of added functionality, or why it's there.)

12) When real wings are at wingspan range bars, I am 1.4 miles from target. (I must be doing something wrong as in first method I needed to be 0.4 miles away.) Fire missile. Aircraft down.

Don't get how to radar lock, as all my targeting seems to rely on physically having the target between the markers on the HUD. Any deviation, and the high pitched growling is lost.

In order to get back to HUD #1, I seem to have to press T1 and then after a few seconds it comes back.

Still confused. No mention of HUD #2 in Viggen manual section p356-358. No mention of most of this in Chuck's Guide.

If by "off" you mean that the central indicator goes dark, then this probably means that the radar switches from ground mapping to ranging mode. It should provide you a range, although I do not know where to read off or use this range. Anyhow, it does suggest you had a succesful radar lock.

Just throwing this out there that I don't do any of that. I go into quick IR mode get a tone, fire and blam!

No need doing that extra stuff

If by "off" you mean that the central indicator goes dark, then this probably means that the radar switches from ground mapping to ranging mode. It should provide you a range, although I do not know where to read off or use this range. Anyhow, it does suggest you had a succesful radar lock.

It doesn't unfortunately mean that there is a lock at all, sadly, as if I press Tv with no target at all, I get the same thing.

Just throwing this out there that I don't do any of that. I go into quick IR mode get a tone, fire and blam!

 

No need doing that extra stuff

Yep, see the start of my post #6.

It doesn't unfortunately mean that there is a lock at all, sadly, as if I press Tv with no target at all, I get the same thing.

Do you select IR-RB on the weapon selector or do you use the fast select button. I've found that if I:

1. Set weapon selector to IR-RB.

2. Master mode to ANF.

3. Radar to A1, 15 km.

4. Point plane at target.

5. Press Tv

Then I get a proper attack HUD symbology (see screenshot) with a distance line countdown, which helps if you want to fire the RB-74 at maximum range.

When I use the missile fast select button, then none if this works. Only when I dial the weapon selector to IR-RB, I get the proper HUD symbology.

Also note that I use Tv instead of T1 (the manual says T1 btw, but that doesn't work for me).

Yep, to be honest, I think this whole thing is bugged, and the manual and guides are incorrect.

I hope that Cobra847 is reading this.

I also have problems, the IR uncage button does not work, the circle never appears the seeker head never hooks any objective

A new fix to sidewinders include T1 to lock instead of TV and setting safety switch to ARM wont re-cage the sidewinder.

Just throwing this out there that I don't do any of that. I go into quick IR mode get a tone, fire and blam!

 

No need doing that extra stuff

Of course not, but sometimes it's fun to know more than just the basics. I will remember to ask about this when I go fly a Viggen simulator https://www.novelair.com/viggen (hopefully) next month.

A new fix to sidewinders include T1 to lock instead of TV and setting safety switch to ARM wont re-cage the sidewinder.

Good to hear!

Any chance you could comment on my post #8?

Can someone explain the RB 24/74 procedure

The distance line appears when you’ve locked a target: aim the sight on it and set T1 - currently TV

The distance line appears when you’ve locked a target: aim the sight on it and set T1 - currently TV

Thanks Ragnar, but I hope that wasn’t relating to my previous post as that is not relevant to anything I said in post #8.

Can someone explain the RB 24/74 procedure

Oh I see.

I am not entirely sure what you are asking, but the different types of HUDs you see are (1) visually ranging the target and (2) radar ranging the target. The radar locking in Viggen is very simple, it just measures what is in front of you and it has a memory for a few seconds to keep the ranging information even though the radar lock would be momentarily lost. In your picture you are outside launch parameters and needs to close in to the target.

Oh I see.

 

I am not entirely sure what you are asking, but the different types of HUDs you see are (1) visually ranging the target and (2) radar ranging the target. The radar locking in Viggen is very simple, it just measures what is in front of you and it has a memory for a few seconds to keep the ranging information even though the radar lock would be momentarily lost. In your picture you are outside launch parameters and needs to close in to the target.

I'm just trying to understand how this works, and really struggling!

If you look at post #8, as far as I can tell, using visual ranging, the aircraft is in range at about 400m, whereas - if I am understanding the symbology correctly - it's 1400m if using the other method.

Also, what I said in that post still stands, i.e.

'Don't get how to radar lock, as all my targeting seems to rely on physically having the target between the markers on the HUD. Any deviation, and the high pitched growling is lost.

In order to get back to HUD #1, I seem to have to press T1 and then after a few seconds it comes back.

Still confused. No mention of HUD #2 in Viggen manual section p356-358. No mention of most of this in Chuck's Guide. '

So, any help appreciated.

Yes as long as the Sidewinder seeker is caged you will always have to have it within the sights to have the high-pitch tone. If you uncage it it will be able to move more freely. The radar in Air-to-air mode is always fixed forward, never moves even though you have a lock and the target moves so you always have to keep the target on the dot for ranging to work.

Thanks again, but I think you are still missing my points.

1) why is the plane in range at 400m when visually ranging by inputting wingspan, yet it is in range at 1400m when using the radar ranging mode?

2) Is it correct that I can only get back to the visually ranging HUD by pressing T1 and holding for a few seconds?

3) as far as I can see there is no mention of HUD #2 in the manual p356-358. Can you point me to where that is documented? I'm still unsure about the symbology with regard to the RB24.

Thanks again.

1) why is the plane in range at 400m when visually ranging by inputting wingspan, yet it is in range at 1400m when using the radar ranging mode?

This sounds like a bug, providing you did set the wingspann correctly and approached the target from its 12 or 6 o'clock.