Serious question. Mirage or Harrier?

I am new to DCS but not flight sims, and I was all set to get the M-2000C as my first "real" module. But now I have started thinking about the Harrier. I have read all the threads, watched all the youtube and I can’t decide. I can only get one. So for all of you who have both, which one is your favorite?

Thanks

:pilotfly::pilotfly:

I'm going to muddy the waters.

Today, Mirage, no question. It's a great module that's now pretty polished and comes with a fantastic campaign and an excellent manual. In terms of complexity, it's also very accessible so you won't have to read the manual for a week before turning the battery on. There is also the upcoming Red Flag campaign by Baltic Dragon which, judging by his previous works, will be a real treat.

In 6 months to a year, the Mirage is going to be surpassed by the Harrier. It's dripping with potential but at the moment functionality is lacking, there are no training missions, the manual is basic at best and there is no campaign (though there is a great home brew campaign by SEDLO). I have zero doubt the Harrier is going to be brilliant but at the current rate of development, we're a while away from brilliant.

See, this is great info!

Keep in mind the Mirage is more a dogfighter and supersonic jet, than an attack plane. So if you are more interested in air to air and just the occasional bombing run or ground attack, the Mirage is a good choice.

If you are more into ground attack action, CAS and dropping guided bombs, like me, then I would definitely consider the AV-8B, though it is in early access currently, and will be for quite a while.

Another consideration if money is an issue, there is the F/A-18C from Eagle Dynamics in the queue... Basically, that is the cumulation of everything into one platform.

A true Multi-Role Jet, carrier capable, supersonic and with a shitload of weapons.

So if you can stand a bit of waiting, I would at least think about it.

The major point is what you like most and what you expect do do with/get out of the platform. Depending on your preferences there already is a module for everything from aerobatics (TF-51D, L-39C, Hawk T.1a), prop flying (P-51D, Fw-190), WW II dogfighting (P-51D, Bf.109, Spitfire, Fw-190), to hands on jet BFM and air combat (F-86, MiG-15, F-5E, MiG-21), as well as modern day jetfighters (Mirage 2000C and all the FC3 stuff, with the F/A-18C in the queue and AV-8B as an interesting sidekick).

Then there are the ground attack platforms that started it all, the Ka-50 Hokum, the A-10C and now the AV-8B N/A in early access, plus the helicopters for the rotor head (UH-1H Huey, Mi-8 and Gazelle, with BO-105 and Mi-24 in the horizon).

I know a tough choice, but there is no simple the "best module is XYZ". :)

My opinion is Harrier. We have been using it in my squadron as a stand in for the F/A-18C, and despite the limits due to EA and bugs, it is simply incredible. Also, I am personally biased, but the M2000C is great as well, I would still go for the Harrier hands down if I had to do it all over again. Hope that helps a bit.

On a les technical reply reply, i'd say is more a own personal choice and what yourself like better, more A/A and some A/G, more A/G and for now limited A/A as with the A-10C (Until variant for A/A comes in a distant future), you prefer european style aircraft or more North American style aircraft, even though British has it etc.., if you like based land aircraft only or naval aircrafts, supersonic matters or not, hability to be able to land/take-off in normal and conventional ways or having 4 possible different ways as take-off and land... conventional aircraft or VTOL which is alone a blast. Advenced modeling or Early Access and don't mind to wait.

So as personal choice, even way in early acess, on my side i prefer the AV-8B, but for my own choice, i'm a Naval Aircraft lover and i love Helicopters, so, for me, the AV-8B is my fav module so far, not to mention i don't realy like Delta Wings, ok it has advantages in A/A, which i don't really like for now. And since an upcoming module has been my fav aircraft ever, this little Harrier in some points reminds me of that aircraft (module i an't gonna name in this forum section). And the most important reason.. it's sexy :) Just bare in mind, the AV-8B need a bit of learning to fly though, that's what i loved about VTOL and Helicopter, challenge. :)

Voted Harrier as I enjoy it more but honestly it mainly depends on what you want to do. The Harrier is a pure mud mover like the A-10C while the Mirage is a thoroughbred air superiority fighter. The Mirage is simpler to learn, but the Harrier isn't super complicated either. The Mirage is also finished as far as I can tell while the Harrier still has some major missing features. That may impact your decision.

I prefer to pound dirt as they say, and the harrier does that well, not as well as my A-10c but in a totally different way, bit more speed and manoeuvrability and can land wherever

its also very stable and easy to fly,

You can't go wrong with either. If it's your 1st proper module and you want a more complete module to learn I'd go M2000. If you don't mind a early access, ground attack go with the Harrier.

The F-18 is coming soon and the F-14 is just around the corner too. Start saving your money! lol

"In 6 months to a year, the Mirage is going to be surpassed by the Harrier." Perhaps.....

I'm with Kayos - think about what you want to be flying. Reading between the lines it feels like he more or less said "what you want to do in the sim, then make your decision." If you want a cool toy get the Harrier or wait for one of the other cool toys, if you want a completed module there are plenty finished ones to choose from that are neither of these.

And for the cool toys, I bought the Harrier over the Mirage because when completed it will be a superior mud mover when put next to the Mirage. It's no Warthog, but the Warthog is no Harrier either, if that makes any sense.

Harrier, it is more finished than the Mirage.

No INS but it's more finished.... yeah... of course.

Harrier, it is more finished than the Mirage.

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

Me too

I have and love both. But I've already spent more time in the Harrier and that's despite owning the Mirage from EA. So it really is personal choice as both are vastly different.

Despite being unfinished, the Harrier feels lighter and more nimble. Landing on the included carrier is exhilarating and never gets boring or routine. It has become my favorite DCS module and that is saying something indeed.

Whatever you decide there's zero chance you will be disappointed, and you can always get the other next!

I am new to DCS but not flight sims, and I was all set to get the M-2000C as my first "real" module. But now I have started thinking about the Harrier. I have read all the threads, watched all the youtube and I can’t decide. I can only get one. So for all of you who have both, which one is your favorite?

 

Thanks

:pilotfly::pilotfly:

Like other people said: it isn't about the plane, it's about the kind of mission you want to fly.

Mirage 2000C RDI: when it was front line air defense fighter, pilots spent 85% of training doing AA, 15% doing AG.

It's supersonic, BVR missiles, IFF interrogator, integrated jammer and decoy dispensers. She loves high speed and high altitude.

AV-8B: close air support down in the mud is her bread and butter. Can do strike off course. AA only for self defense. STOVL operations from LHD or remote locations surely add a lot of fun.

Awesome information and thoughts. Just what I was looking for. I like AA and AG almost equally, and have always had a love for the Mirage AND the Harrier, hence the reason for this thread :)

I think I am leaning towards the M2000 only because of the campaign and the Upcoming Red Flag sounds amazing.

I'm going to let this all marinate and hopefully pull the trigger on one of these soon. I can always come back and get the other later on. Its not like its final, final, right.

Thanks guys

Oh wow! Harrier is ahead 34 to 24! I wonder if we can gets odds in Vegas?

(Until variant for A/A comes in a distant future),

Which variant and do you have a linke for that info? Is Harrier going to get a radar?

Option 3

if you want to do CAS in a fully finished module with guided weapons etc. multifunction displays without waiting for the harrier to be finihsed

Look no further than the A10C.

Option 4

Want an aircraft that is potent air to air combat , and also something that perform a wide array for Strike missions?

Wait for F/A18C.

proper Multimission Fighter that is not that far off from early access given thier expected release deadline at worst will be end of Spring.

Which variant and do you have a linke for that info? Is Harrier going to get a radar?

a friend has read, never asked hm where, that in upcoming future the Harrier might gets a radar and aim-120, so more likely the AV-8B Harrier II Plus variant. But again no sure references, but i wouldn't surprise. But for now, there is so many stuf left to be done on this one, let's just focus and dream about the AV-8B N/A being complete. :)

Oh wow! Harrier is ahead 34 to 24! I wonder if we can gets odds in Vegas?

Speaking of Vegas, imagine, with the Harrier you can reproduce True Lies scene, hovering hover the Trumb Tower in Vegas and shoot windows :P

a friend has read, never asked hm where, that in upcoming future the Harrier might gets a radar and aim-120, so more likely the AV-8B Harrier II Plus variant. But again no sure references, but i wouldn't surprise. But for now, there is so many stuf left to be done on this one, let's just focus and dream about the AV-8B N/A being complete. :)

Razbam said they aren't closed to the idea...once they get the AG radar "API" from ED :music_whistling:

Razbam said they aren't closed to the idea...once they get the AG radar "API" from ED :music_whistling:

Of course :) Lots of stuff will change when this bird comes alive with it's all new ffeatures to the game engine. But for now what i want is, this Harrier with TACAN and Hires Tarawa, the other variants can wait :P

I am new to DCS but not flight sims, and I was all set to get the M-2000C as my first "real" module. But now I have started thinking about the Harrier. I have read all the threads, watched all the youtube and I can’t decide. I can only get one. So for all of you who have both, which one is your favorite?

 

Thanks

:pilotfly::pilotfly:

Get them both.. because once you taste one of them you will wish you had the other as well, of course they are both completely different aircraft but equally great in their own rights regardless of them being WIP/Beta, they are awesome.

Back with reasoning, the Mirage may be argued by some that it is highly incomplete. The main reasoning goes behind to some of the systems that have bugs, and the incompletion of the radar.

 

The radar that is in the Mirage right now is still quite basic and does not work well when it comes to locking targets of different aircraft, which can play with a huge issue of actually killing them when only so much of a degree path difference loses lock. To get into more detail, we have to understand what the radar is meant for. The Mirage 2000C is the first 4th generation aircraft of its kind to be implemented a Radar Doppler Multifunction, derived of the Cyrano IV built in the Mirage F1, a more pre-build than the C, and later becoming the Radar Doppler à Impulsions, (RDI) which was primarily of air to air. Along with that, there is also a multimode of the Radar Doppler Multitarget (RDY) meant for air to ground also. These are both French acronyms, and the RDY is translated. We're going to be looking into the RDY side of the M-2000C radar, which is for air to ground.

 

We know that there is no implementation of the air to ground radar for the M-2000C, and because of 2 reasons. One may be blamed due to ED have not developed an air to ground radar, but will come out with the Hornet. I did some searching in the newsletters to find out that they had been developing an air to ground radar, even before to their recent announcement of now doing it after everything else. Either they had slow progress, or never got to it. That is not the point here. And while I do not know of the specific RDY variant that we have, it is definitely missing the lacking purpose of the M-2000C "multi-role" position. Just because it can use guided bombs even though you can't properly use them of the RDY does not make the aircraft "multi-role" furthermore. It still remains as a fighter.

 

Please apologize for my reasoning, I know that this may be a hazy line of a subject involving air to ground radar features in DCS, but it is very possible and the M-2000C shouldn't still be in early access just because of this and other key things.

Wow, there are a few things to correct here:

- indeed RDM can be seen as a development from the Cyrano IV. It's a multi role radar with AG (including DBS mode) and air to sea functions, planned for export variant. A basic version (without air to sea, DBS or CWI) was fitted to French Mirage 2000C as "stop gap" due to development difficulties in RDI program. Mirage 2000C RDM used the Super 530F missile from Mirage F1.

- RDI is a different radar dedicated to AA task, AG being secondary. There are only 2 AG functions: map (VIS) and terrain avoidance (DEC). And even DEC mode is rather here to support the "all weather interceptor" mission than AG strike. There is no AG targeting function associated to map mode.

- RDY (for Mirage 2000-5) is mainly a multi-targeting AA radar associated with Mica Fox 3 missiles. The first customers (France, Taiwan and Qatar) have little to no AG mission for this plane. The AG capacity of RDY was developed to support export variant (Mirage 2000-9 for U.A.E. and Mirage 2000-5Mk2 for Greece).

So Mirage 2000C RDI isn't a multi role aircraft, it's an interceptor with secondary and basic AG capacity (like MiG 29 or even F-15C => capacity only used by Israel).

M-2000C module:

Razbam is modeling the RDI radar, not the RDY (Mirage 2000-5).

Yes there are bugs to correct, and improvement to bring to some existing functions.

But, as it is right now, you can perform AA mission in a realistic way, you can set up your cockpit in the same way as IRL, and you have tools (INS and radar screen) to use Bullseye calls in a more efficient way than any FC3 fighter.

For AG, the "CCPL + PI" mode (Initial Point CCRP) is bugged for bomb release, but you won't get any more options than:

- direct CCRP

- CCRP + IP

- CCIP

and it's already there.