MiG vs Sabre-- Climb Rate - ED Forums
 


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Old 04-20-2017, 03:04 PM   #1
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Default MiG vs Sabre-- Climb Rate

I was always under the impression that the MiG could reliably outclimb the Sabre, that that was one of its key advantages.

Flying in multiplayer recently, that hasn't seemed to be the case. MiG pilots mentioned the MiG was feeling "sluggish." So we did a quick test, me in the F-86, Werewolf in the MiG-15:




Started at even altitude, matched speed at ~.7 mach, then full throttle and aggressive climb. To my surprise, there seemed to be essentially no difference-- the planes stayed at about even distance the whole time, all the way to and through the stall.

We tried again, starting from about ~.5 mach, then full throttle + aggressive climb: [skip to 04:10 in video] same deal. Maybe the Sabre stalled out a tad quicker on that one, but there really seemed to be no major difference in climb rate. Certainly not enough to make any difference in a dogfight. Meanwhile, the Sabre could still reliably out-dive the MiG.

What's going on here? Am I crazy for thinking the MiG was supposed to outclimb the Sabre? Or is there a bug in the flight model?
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:41 PM   #2
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You're doing zoom climbs, not sustained climbs. The airplanes perform comparably (I'm guessing) because the Sabre's lower drag compensates for its inferior TWR.

Next time, tell the MiG to maintain best climb speed (700kmh TAS). It climbs like an absolute beast all the way to 40,000 ft. I'm not sure what the best climb speed is for the sabre, though.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:11 PM   #3
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Best climb speed varies with alt and configuration. For the Sabre climb schedules can be found in T.O. 1F-86F-1 in the appendices for a standard day.
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:47 PM   #4
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:16 PM   #5
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Historically the Mig-15 (no bis) could outclimb the F-86A and E, and could outperform the sabre at high altitudes (where most of the engagements at least started).

However with the big boost in power, as well as the new 6-3 wing, the F-86F basically should outperform the Mig-15BIS in everything, except at higher altitudes where it matches it. Especially considering the extreme negative effects of the Mig-15 in transonic regions.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:15 PM   #6
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danneskjold View Post
Historically the Mig-15 (no bis) could outclimb the F-86A and E, and could outperform the sabre at high altitudes (where most of the engagements at least started).

However with the big boost in power, as well as the new 6-3 wing, the F-86F basically should outperform the Mig-15BIS in everything, except at higher altitudes where it matches it. Especially considering the extreme negative effects of the Mig-15 in transonic regions.
Another good point since the version of the Mig-15 and the Sabre we have never engaged in combat over Korea, the anecdotes we get do not necessarily apply.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:50 PM   #8
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Interesting. My conviction that the MiG could strongly outclimb the Sabre must've come from a mix of earlier historical anecdotes + fighting the the over-simplified AI model. It's too bad we don't have the option to swap out our Sabre with earlier variants, as I would be very interested in simulating the early days of the Korean conflict.
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Old 04-22-2017, 01:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaQuark View Post
Interesting. My conviction that the MiG could strongly outclimb the Sabre must've come from a mix of earlier historical anecdotes + fighting the the over-simplified AI model. It's too bad we don't have the option to swap out our Sabre with earlier variants, as I would be very interested in simulating the early days of the Korean conflict.
We would need a Mig to match it then because the one we have arrived in Korea too late for combat and was improved (hence the bis designation) from the earlier version that saw combat, however the Sabre we have is not too far off the last models to fight in Korea when the kill ratio was ~10:1.

There are many misconceptions based on earlier reported combat experiences that continue to persist, for example the ineffectiveness of the .50 cal and that was true if the A models that deployed with the 4th FIW. Those a/c were equipped with the M2 and they were ineffective. They were fairly rapidly rearmed with the M3 that could fire the M20 APIT round and it was lethal against the Mig, just watch the gun cam footage.

I could not sum it up better than this author

"The introduction of the F into combat in Korea went a long way to closing the high-altitude performance gap between the Sabre and the MiG-15. No longer could the MiGs zoom and climb through Sabre formations with impunity, and the Sabre pilots could now close on the MiGs at any altitude, even during a climb."
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71st_AH Rob View Post
"The introduction of the F into combat in Korea went a long way to closing the high-altitude performance gap between the Sabre and the MiG-15. No longer could the MiGs zoom and climb through Sabre formations with impunity, and the Sabre pilots could now close on the MiGs at any altitude, even during a climb."
Yikes! explains a bit here (for those MiG drivers).
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