D4n Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 After a few seconds in the air with the engine having stopped, I lose control over the Harrier. Is there really no emergency hydraulic system (battery powered) to keep control until landing? DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederf Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 "Landing with the engine inoperative shall not be attempted." You should have some control over hydraulic flight controls as there is stored energy in the accumulators. Energy is expended primarily by flight control movement and to a lesser degree time. With minimal input a significant duration of controlled flight may be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Wow. I'd have expected the engineers to make the battery be able to power the hydraulics system. DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLX Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I noticed this too. Was coming back on fumes and lost power on final. Thought I'd be able to glide it in but lost complete control immediately. Plane veered/rolled left and it ended in tears. Doesn't seem like a particularly good design feature. Sent from my MediaPad using Tapatalk 3570K w/ 16GB, 1070 w/ 8GB @ 1440p, VKB Gunfighter/MCG-Pro & T-Rudder Mk.IV, CH ProThrottle, TrackIR 5, HTC Vive, UniversRadio, VoiceAttack, TacView Pro, DCS Menu Nav F/A-18C, F-5E, F-86F, A-10C, AV-8B, AJS-37, MiG-21bis, MiG-15bis, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Ka-50, SA342, P-51D, Spitfire Mk.IX, Bf109, Fw190, FC3, CA, Persian Gulf, NTTR, Normandy, WW2 Assets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I noticed this too. Was coming back on fumes and lost power on final. Thought I'd be able to glide it in but lost complete control immediately. Plane veered/rolled left and it ended in tears. Doesn't seem like a particularly good design feature. Sent from my MediaPad using Tapatalk But a very common one, for example: - F-15C do not even have a battery, so if engines are not running due to fuel starvation, there is no hydraulic pressure. - F-16 uses hydrazine for its emergency power unit (EPU, which provides limited electricity and hydraulic pressure) but it will only run for 10 minutes without moving the flight control. You start moving the flight controls you might only get half or one third that time. Flight control accumulators are there to help with surges and will not power the flight control more than a second or two. - F-117 use the APU to provide air to the EPU, but if your tanks are empty, that will not help you either. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger71 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Wow. I'd have expected the engineers to make the battery be able to power the hydraulics system. I don't think there is really any (I'm sure there are some exceptions) modern fighter that can land with no engine power. I've been there many times myself trying to suck every last gram of fuel but in real life this would never happen. The fuel calculations are very specific right down to wind calculations and of course all stores on board. At bingo fuel you RTB. Fighters are streamlined for weight and most have unstable flight dynamics. GA and some airliners on the other hand have a much much greater glide ratio and, with lots of added extra weight, do have back up power in event of engine failures. cool story of an F18 through a series of events, 2 miles from a carrier ran out of fuel. ejected as soon as he lost power to second engine. https://pilotonline.com/news/military/article_b6d39b36-57d6-5142-96d5-568f1d58f764.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 " 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons" hmmm... DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmlufc Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 There is two hydraulic systems on the Harrier, both driven by the engine. You should be able to move the rudder with no hydraulics and blow the undercarriage down if that's any help? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Then I imagine that at least some of the many Harrier that were lost in the conflicts were abandoned by their pilots in the air when the engine failed instead of gliding to some airfield (if altitude allowed it). DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger71 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Then I imagine that at least some of the many Harrier that were lost in the conflicts were abandoned by their pilots in the air when the engine failed instead of gliding to some airfield (if altitude allowed it). Pretty much most any fighter that lost engine power in the past 50 years crashed BUT of those engines dying out due to running out of fuel would be insignificant as pilots in any modern conflict would not allow this to happen. Fuel management is as important to the pilot as his weapon system. In combat simulators, most players, including myself don't really adhere to strict fuel management. Pilot gliding a modern military jet to touchdown on an airfield is such a rare occurrence, I don't even know when the last time it was done successfully. Edited July 18, 2018 by Dagger71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Then I imagine that at least some of the many Harrier that were lost in the conflicts were abandoned by their pilots in the air when the engine failed instead of gliding to some airfield (if altitude allowed it). RL isn't always like the movies, the NATOPS Flight Manual devotes one line to landing with a failed engine. 16.10 LANDING WITH ENGINE FAILURE Landing with the engine inoperative shall not be attempted. i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Yep... I wonder why in the design of the Harrier it wasn't meant to have battery powered hydraulics. DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitrischal Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Battery powered hydraulics is not a thing. Hydraulic pressure requires massive amounts of power that’s why it’s done primarily by engine driven pumps and rarely by electrical pumps, even then they are driven by the electrical generators not the batteries, at least most of the time... You are missing the point though. A harrier losing its engine in flight is by all means lost. Why add weight to add hydraulic power nobody will use? However I think you can use the engine starter to spool the engine and get hydraulic power on the harrier but I haven’t tried it yet. Edited July 18, 2018 by dimitrischal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 ... However I think you can use the engine starter to spool the engine and get hydraulic power on the harrier but I haven’t tried it yet. Yes so now the question is at which RPM will the engine deliver power to the hydraulic system. :) DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitrischal Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 You can try and find out you know. Still useless though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadg Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 the harrier glides like a brick :) that's why it does not need hydraulics after the engines fail. it has little stubby wings and is reliant on a scary thrust to weight ratio to stay in the air. you have enough control after engine failure to point it somewhere safe before you eject. so why waste any more money on it? My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger71 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Yep... I wonder why in the design of the Harrier it wasn't meant to have battery powered hydraulics. you are not understanding. No military fighter aircraft is designed to be flown with no engine power. They haven't designed any backup hydraulic system, because they can't glide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederf Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 MiG-21 has electric hydraulic pump but I'm not sure if it runs from battery. It takes much power if it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike88 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Has anyone actually in game been able to successfully restart their engine in flight ? Several procedures and manual overrides given to Fuel , decs systems to force a restart. Wonder if it’s actually coded or a DCS limitation for an air start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Pretty much most any fighter that lost engine power in the past 50 years crashed BUT of those engines dying out due to running out of fuel would be insignificant as pilots in any modern conflict would not allow this to happen. Fuel management is as important to the pilot as his weapon system. In combat simulators, most players, including myself don't really adhere to strict fuel management. Pilot gliding a modern military jet to touchdown on an airfield is such a rare occurrence, I don't even know when the last time it was done successfully. About 20 years ago to the best of my knowedge...F-16. Dead-sticked it to somewhere over the east Carolinas F-16 was lost in ‘03 over Iraq due to bad fuel management and trapped fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 About 20 years ago to the best of my knowedge...F-16. Dead-sticked it to somewhere over the east Carolinas... You notice he was only gliding for not more than 5 minutes. At around 1:29 in the video, he mention "no start" so his Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) can be assume running and motoring the engine, this would help a little with building hydraulic pressure and the fact he is flying around 240 knots will also help the EPU. ...F-16 was lost in ‘03 over Iraq due to bad fuel management and trapped fuel. I would not say bad fuel management, more of the F-16 can be a pain on fuel transfer. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3570523&postcount=327 Another example [ATTACH]190243[/ATTACH] So if the wings empty before the externals, you will not get that fuel out. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article918.html Lack of SA basically. They also ran two airplanes together that trip on the ground...went down 3 birds in about a week or two, in the AOR no less. I just saw pictures of the two the other day, friend took them and I had no idea he had them. Cooked off a rocket motor on the live AIM-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article918.html Lack of SA basically. They also ran two airplanes together that trip on the ground...went down 3 birds in about a week or two, in the AOR no less. I just saw pictures of the two the other day, friend took them and I had no idea he had them. Cooked off a rocket motor on the live AIM-9. :D Did they call the IG to report them? They have photos in F-16.net about it. http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album30/acc http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album30/aby Edited July 19, 2018 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 :D Did the call the IG to report them? http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album30/aby Haha...no. I saw pics when it happened, I just didn't know anyone took personal pics. That was back in '03...statute of limitations is up now. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 :D Did the call the IG to report them? They have photos in F-16.net about it. http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album30/acc http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album30/aby Yup...those two. :lol: Go figure F-6.net would have them. They have the Bagram bird that decided to drive off base too?!?! Also a Hill tail. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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