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-Condor-

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Hello.

 

This refers to the A-10C

 

Just a quick question to ask if others are having the same issue as myself in that after initiating the ILS landing system and double checking all systems are active that some airports will not provide operational ILS signal beacons. I get constant red flags until I land. I've double checked everything I'm doing is correct.

 

I'm using version 2.5.2.20143 on Windows 10

 

All the best

 

 

John


Edited by -Condor-
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ILS isn't available for all airfields/runways in DCS.

 

Assuming that you are landing on a runway with ILS - there is a bug in DCS 2.5.x Caucasus where, for light 1-5 knot head winds, ILS will turnoff for the active ATC runway.

 

The only work around is to set the wind to 0 or a +6 knots headwind in the Mission Editor.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3530219&postcount=2

 

Tested, Kobuleti 07, zero wind, DCS 2.5.2.20143


Edited by Ramsay
Test A-10C ILS in DCS 2.5.2.20143

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Hi and thanks for the reply.

 

When I look at the "Divert" page on the CDU I'm landing at fields which only support ILS. I'm starting off from the DCS "Training" free flight Caucasus map in the air or ramp start. There is wind but need to pay attention to the direction from ATC. This might be the problem. It's when I turn the ILS on, I get no signals and no glide scope yellow bars. Yes, the are active :-)

 

I'll post again if it's happening on tail wind etc as I've double checked everything and carefully watched Ralphi's advanced guide for ILS just to check

 

 

Cheers

 

John

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Not all ILS systems are running at all times. It depends on the wind and it's not the same logic that ATC is using to assign landing/takeoff runways.

 

Check at airfields which have ILS in both directions. Always one is operating even if it is not the direction assigned by ATC.

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I'd first try it on a runway that you know has ILS, Batumi 13 for example, which I am fairly sure is freq 110.30.

 

That way, if it doesn't work, it might point at something that you are missing, rather than it being an issue with DCS.

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I'd first try it on a runway that you know has ILS, Batumi 13 for example, which I am fairly sure is freq 110.30.

 

That way, if it doesn't work, it might point at something that you are missing, rather than it being an issue with DCS.

 

The trouble is - the SP mission the OP is flying "Free Flight - Black Sea - Ramp Start.miz", has dynamic weather, so the wind strengths and directions are variable and an ILS that works in one play though, might not in another.

 

IMHO his best options are:-

 

• To create a clean mission in the ME i.e. spawn a player A-10C on a airfield and leave the winds at zero.

 

or

 

• Copy "DCS WorldModsaircraftA-10CMissionsSingleFree Flight - Black Sea - Ramp Start.miz" to "Saved GamesDCSMissions", open the mission in the editor and change the weather options to static/zero wind and fly his edited version.

 

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Hello.

 

This refers to the A-10C

 

Just a quick question to ask if others are having the same issue as myself in that after initiating the ILS landing system and double checking all systems are active that some airports will not provide operational ILS signal beacons. I get constant red flags until I land. I've double checked everything I'm doing is correct.

 

I'm using version 2.5.2.20143 on Windows 10

 

All the best

 

 

John

 

Some airports are doing that and others aren't? I get that at Creech AFB. No wind turned on or anything. No front course, no back course, just a big pair of red flags.

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I get that at Creech AFB. No wind turned on or anything. No front course, no back course, just a big pair of red flags.

 

You'll need to post a track as I can't reproduce at Creech AFB with zero wind, ATC's default active runway was RWY 08 with it's working ILS.

 

Creech AFB, Alt 3127 ft MSL

ATC 360.600 MHz

TACAN 87X

RWY 08: ILS 82°M (92°T), 108.70 MHz

Course: 82°M

 

Tested with A-10C in DCS 2.5.2.20143

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I agree with Ramsay that the Creech ILS 08 is working from the mission editor. HOWEVER, I think something is going on there.

 

I say this because this morning I ran the instant action A10 weapons practice mission. Going back into Creech afterwords I remembered this thread so I fired up the ILS reciever on 108.70 and set up for 08. No tone, all flags displayed. Without restarting, flew over to Nellis- the ILS to 21 functions perfectly.

 

Now intrigued, I started up the ME and got to looking at Creech. The ME actually shows two ILS systems to Creech, the ILS 08 on 108.70 and an ILS 13 on 108.50. No wind with ATC calling 08 the active, ILS to 08 works great. With the winds howling from the south (180 at 30+ knots) ATC calls visuals to Rwy 13, but only the ILS to 08 is functioning.

 

I am not particularly familiar with the Nevada airports (at least not in DCS) but are the ILS systems to Creech new additions? The (awesome) 476th TERPS pack doesn't have any ILS procedures published there. Civilian resources, which normally show the ILS systems available at military airports (in case civilian aircraft have emergencies) show no ILS systems at Creech (KINS).

 

If so, could this be an issue of...

-at least one of the ILS systems working in the ME (108.7)

 

-the other ILS (which doesn't show when you click on Creech in the F10 map OR in the CDU divert page) showing in the ME but not yet functioning AND

 

-an older mission created before the ILS systems were added is having a problem utilizing them

 

The last point there is the one I have the hardest time with, my understanding of the DCS system is that mission files would only have the unit locations, objectives, ect, and that changes to the NAVAIDS should update as the map updates...but I am not sure there.

 

Eagle, which ILS at Creech were you trying to use?

 

I did attach two track files, one from the mission editor, airborne start, the ILS to 08 is working at Creech, no ILS working on 13. Second file is the vanilla instant action weapons practice. I turn back to Creech, attempt tuning both ILS's there to no avail, and after ONLY changing the ILS frequency, fly to Nellis and capture the loc/gs there.

All tests in A10C 2.5.2.20143 (most recent stable client)

ME to Creech.trk

Instant Action to Creech.trk

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Tom, thanks for the detail in that post, because it matches pretty much exactly the situation I was trying the ILS approach at Creech with. It was the A-10C Weapons Practice mission, and I had already gone into the ME to change my takeoff point to Creech instead of Nellis, with a ramp start. I take off, fly the mission, then head back to Creech to land on 08/26 and I get nothing. Granted, I started off by approaching the 26 end, but I should still get a backcourse. I fly straight down the runway and out to a point where I can approach from the correct 08 end, and still nothing. At the time I tried this, which was probably about a month ago, I don't remember the 13 ILS showing as available on the F10 map. Actually, I think it showed as available, but didn't have the frequency listed. I'll have to try it again with the latest updates to DCS and see what happens. I should also be able to tune to the ILS while I sit on the ground, which usually results in a flag with a pegged CDI needle. That would be normal, real world behavior, so I should be able to see pretty quickly if at least one of the ILSs works now.

 

Runway markings versus magnetic azimuth at many of the Caucasus airports are way the hell off too. The airbase in the "In The Weeds" mission is marked almost 20 degrees off of its magnetic azimuth, but I'm not gonna beat that dead horse again. :music_whistling:

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I've just been flying the A10C again, after a bit of a break to learn the Hornet, and the only way i could find to get the red flags to appear on the ADI was to turn off the ILS system, with the knob at the side of the ILS frequency.

 

I don't know if you also fly in VR, but for me the control can look like it's switched on when it is actually switched off and vice-versa, as the white radial lines next to the two options look longer for the deselected option than they do for the selected option, as the knob has a little protrusion on it, which covers up the line on the selected option.

 

Either way, maybe just try to turn the knob to the other option, to see if that solves the issue.

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Gray, I'm not sure if this was directed at Eagle and I or at the OP. The OP seems to have left the thread and admittedly the last few posts are moving a little bit away from where Condor started. But if your question was going towards Eagle and I, I don't think a switch problem is the case.

 

No tone, all flags displayed. Without restarting, flew over to Nellis- the ILS to 21 functions perfectly.

 

When you have no identification tone and flagged instruments on one frequency, ONLY change the frequency, and are able to receive audio ID and unflagged needles that pretty much rules out an aircraft issue. (That is also why I posted tracks with detailed descriptions). I also stated in my track descriptions that I was able to receive an ILS during both tracks. Again, that rules out an aircraft equipment issue.

 

As I stated before, I don't think there are systematic problems with the ILS nav radio on the A10C OR the ILS ground equipment on most DCS airfields. I was simply pointing out one very specific instance (Nevada, instant action weapons practice mission, Creech AFB) where there appears to be a problem and backed it up with a detailed description and tracks. I didn't know beforehand that Eagle had been having the same problem in this exact situation, but that is what appears to be the case.

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No worries, I have a feeling my presentation probably comes off with a much harsher tone than I ever intend so that is my fault (something for me to work on). I'm also usually the first to jump to pilot error (because honestly that is usually the case) but this one is making me think that there is an issue, even if it is just on the one instant action mission.

 

 

Maybe someone else could just fire up the "weapons practice" instant action at Vegas and try their luck on 108.7 for the ILS to 8, you pretty much start the mission airborne in the Creech terminal area...

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I've just flown that approach, despite ATC telling me to fly the reciprocal approach, and had the red flags on the ADI all the way down.

 

When I had landed, I thought I'd check if it was caused by a dodgy setup of the air-start mission, by shutting down and then starting up the aircraft.

 

When I took off, the behaviour on approach to runway 08 was different, in that the localiser (vertical) needle was displayed, but the glide slope needle was not. This might have been caused by a rather steep approach, aka crap flying, but I would still have expected to cross the glide slope and see the horizontal needle during my dive for the runway. I did do a touch and go, to try again, but I could still not get the glide slope needle to appear.

 

Apart from crap flying, It could also be that the airfield only has a localiser and no glide slope sensor, but I can't find anything about that.

 

Either way, it looks like the instant access mission isn't quite right, in the way that it sets up the in flight aircraft.

 

Maybe give the restart a try and see if you can get the glide slope needle to appear.

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Tom, I forgot to mention that in my scenario that pretty much matched yours, I gave up on Creech and flew to Nellis. When I got within range of Nellis, the squelch on my ILS radio started to break and then I got the motorboat and the ident, along with good CDI and G/S. I'll try Creech again with the new updates installed and see if I get correct behavior. Might be a while before I have time though. I have an L-39 in my shop now for an ADS-B upgrade, so I'll probably have to wait for the weekend.

 

Greyman, if you're getting a good CDI needle but your G/S is flagged, you're picking up the ILS, but you're on the backcourse. Have you tried continuing to fly to the opposite end of the runway and shooting an approach from that direction? Your approach angle would have to be really out-of-whack for you to have a flagged G/S approaching from the correct direction.

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Okay I figured something out - and I should have started reading this discussion closely from the beginning because Ramsay touched on it pretty hard early on. (Gray before this I did try landing out of the instant action, shutting down to a cold aircraft, and restarting like you suggested. It had no effect on the ILS to 8.)

 

First, that 108.5 ILS feather showing up on the ME map -- I can't get it to do anything even with the wind favoring it so I will leave it aside for now.

 

 

As for the ILS 08 on 108.7 - it works with dead calm winds like if you start a mission editor from scratch. Then I looked at the instant action mission in question in the editor; the winds are favoring 26. I turned the wind around in the editor, started the mission, and voila, ILS to 8 working perfectly.

 

 

So my apologies to Ramsay (and Frederf) -- if I had read deeper into the threads you provided I would have discovered this sooner. Despite Creech not having an ILS serving both ways, they shut off the ILS to 8 with any tailwind...and to echo comments made by Frederf in another thread, this is not satisfactory -- circling minimums are still published for ILS's and there is nothing wrong with shooting the ILS to VMC with a tailwind and circling to land into the wind, particularly if no approaches are available in the other direction.

 

Also it should be noted that I didn't see any of the other threads discussing this issue at Nevada, so that could be useful information to devs.

 

And Eagle, at first brush I thought you were making a joke with the L39 getting its ADS-B done, thinking maybe you were adding the 430 module to your L39 DCS module. Then I reread -- are you the owner or are you an avionics guy? Either way, cool stuff.


Edited by tom_19d
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Typical situation. Creech only has an ILS for runway 08. Winds were out of the west so ILS 08 deactivated (which it wouldn't be in real life because it's not conflicting with anything).

 

Check with any airport that has ILS in both directions and you'll find one of them has ILS working (and it's not always the one ATC sends you to).

 

 

There are also "back course" LOC approaches where you follow the localizer for the other direction (but not the G/S). In such cases you just have to be careful since lateral steering will be reversed. And of course you can request an approach with a tail wind in real life and often it will be approved. If it's bad weather and the only acceptable instrument approach has a few knots tail wind that is the one you want.


Edited by Frederf
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It might be typical in DCS but I am simply saying (and I think you agree with me) that it isn't satisfactory for the situation you and I both outlined; there is no good reason to turn off a field's only ILS since you can always circle or land with a tailwind within aircraft/company limitations.

 

There are also "back course" LOC approaches where you follow the localizer for the other direction (but not the G/S). In such cases you just have to be careful since lateral steering will be reversed. And of course you can request an approach with a tail wind in real life and often it will be approved. If it's bad weather and the only acceptable instrument approach has a few knots tail wind that is the one you want.

I'm well familiar with BC approaches and would love to be able to do that in this situation, but I can't because they are turning off the loc. Also in the A10 its not reverse sensing since you have an HSI. Just set the front course and steer towards the course bar like normal.

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Right, it'll reverse sense if you set your actual approach course. If you set the front course (arrow at the bottom) then when the CDI drifts left it will look like moving right because the whole HSI is upside down. I still consider drift toward 3 o'clock position going left (12 o'clock being arrow) even if that's toward your right knee.

 

 

 

The bank steering bar (yellow, ADI) in DCS doesn't work like the real airplane. In reality you have to stow it because it can't be made to steer correctly since it's hard coded to signal rate and independent of the HSI or CRS knob.

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Thanks. But as I said above, literally in fact, I am well familiar with BC approaches.

 

I'm not quite sure what is going on here Frederf, I agreed with you by name in post 19 of this thread about your points about the nature of the wind/ILS problem but you seem to want to give me lectures on instrument flying theory. I just came here to try to help someone who couldn't get an approach to work.

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And Eagle, at first brush I thought you were making a joke with the L39 getting its ADS-B done, thinking maybe you were adding the 430 module to your L39 DCS module. Then I reread -- are you the owner or are you an avionics guy? Either way, cool stuff.

 

Tom, I'm an avionics crew lead. Funny that you mention that 430 mod for the DCS L-39. This one has a 530 in it that I just sent out to the factory for a WAAS upgrade so we can use it as the position source and as the TIS-B/FIS-B display for his new ADS-B in/out solution. The best thing about this one is that his seats have been deactivated. I always have all of the safeties on when I'm working in one with hot seats, but it still scares the hell out of me. Anyway, sorry for the OT everybody. I'll try Creech again one of these days soon and see if 08 works a little better than it did with previous versions. I'm with you on the ILS being shut down completely based on wind, that's definitely not right.

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I could never have been an avionics guy; way too much time standing on your head trying to force your hands somewhere they don't fit so you can work on something you can't see haha!

 

I'm with you on the ILS being shut down completely based on wind, that's definitely not right.

 

Agreed.

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