B-17G MGs AI

This may have been discussed but I was unable to find it using the dreaded search tool, but I finally got the B-17s to carpet bomb (Sort of). However, I cannot seem to figure out how to get them to defend themselves with the .50 cals...

also...

seems like there is only one AI hiding in somewhere in the plane... and when he bails out... he is in a german flight suit... maybe that's why he won't shoot back... :)

When the B-17 drops its payload, it drops it from the top to the bottom, essentially clipping each bomb...

This may have been discussed but I was unable to find it using the dreaded search tool, but I finally got the B-17s to carpet bomb (Sort of). However, I cannot seem to figure out how to get them to defend themselves with the .50 cals...

 

also...

 

seems like there is only one AI hiding in somewhere in the plane... and when he bails out... he is in a german flight suit... maybe that's why he won't shoot back... :)

 

When the B-17 drops its payload, it drops it from the top to the bottom, essentially clipping each bomb...

Bombers are WIP and that's the reason for those issues that you are experiencing

they now shoot back but even on average skill there way too accurate.

they now shoot back but even on average skill there way too accurate.

Hi, realy? Do you play single player ore multiplayer? I think they are quite good with higher settings, but on average they do not defent the B-17 good enough to be dangerus to enemy human pilots.

Here something i wrote about a test on Storm of War with the gunners from the B-17, maby this helps the mapmakers to get the gunnersettings right. Of curse the gunnersettings depents on what the server wants, easy targets or need the pilot who is atacking his brain:

Philstyle, Mauf and me did some testing on the gunners from the B-17 on a fast Mission from Philstyle. We tested two settings, at the first one the gunners where on exelent, the second setting was a mix of

exelent in the leading planes of the formation and the rest where set to veteran. Even when there will be lots of wineing about how strong the gunners are, i would say from the view of a german pilot, they are better than expected and the make it not easy to atack them.

How they react:

1) every atack from 4 - 8 a clock at the same level or in a slight dive at high speed, they will get you and kill your plane or

the pilot. An atack from high six with a dive with about 60 - 70 degrees at high speed is possible.

2) atacking from 10 - 2 a clock or level from 12 a clock is the best way to atack the bombers. Also atacking from

9 or 3 a clock high, low or same level is the save way.

3) You can also survive to be complet in the formation, as long you dont fly for 1 second straigt and level, 1 second and

you are death.

4) Looks like the gunners open fire at about 500m, so you could come in on the death six, open fire at 600m and try to

kill a bomber. Yes you can try it , but this will happen: At 500m you hear the gunners start making hits on you,

at 300m your plane is on fire and your pilot is death.

5) Also it looks like the gunners cant track the atacker if he comes in on a high angle and high speed, so the angle and

the leed the gunner needs to hit, change to fast for him to calculate, or the gunturrets cant move so fast.

Hopefully Phil can post something more about this test in better english, so all is right said.

I personally would change a thing on the settings we testet, makes the pilot to use his brain if he want to atack the bombers and the noobs that try the easy way will be killed faster than they can say ....... . Even when the new DM is coming, i would not change the gunners. It was a dangerus thing to atack a B-17 combat box and hard to shot down a bomber.

regards

Little_D

they now shoot back but even on average skill there way too accurate.

It's almost impossible to know exactly "how" accurate a gunner, or series of gunners should be.

I am not overly concnerned about the gunner accuracy. If you fly a predicatable flight path, then that's your own fualt!

3 of us Myself, Arglmauf and Little_D) tested a formation of 12 B17s with 1) all AI aircraft set to "excellent" and then 2) with a mix of skill settings.

I found it hard to see obviuos difference in the effectiveness of fire, with the above changed settings. Little_D is more confident that I am that it made a difference.

Further more:

1. Provided you attack with a varying flight path, you can get in and out of a bomber formation without much concnern.

2. Level flight for more than 0.5 seconds within 300m of a B17 formation will get you killed.

LESSON: Dont' attack with a predictable approach or flight path.

Finally:

The AI gunners seem to be using a highly effective prediction technique. This is what enables them to kill you if you fly a consistent flightpath. They seem to be firing at a position (with near perfect deflection) about 0.1 to 0.5 seconds ahead of your current position. So, you need to change heading at least every 0.25 seconds.

What I'd LIKE to see (as noted also by Arglmauf who I flew with) is for the gunners to "track" onto that position, perhaps firing in short bursts - one burst that is "near" the position the are aiming for, and the second burst that corrects onto that position.

Also, I'd like to know more about the skill settings and their effect on gunner accuracy.

I have about an hour's worth of video of us doing this testing.. I just need to edit it down to the useful bits and upload it to YT.. time permitting.

I only did one 20min test on release day, so its probably not super accurate. But what I noticed is that even in frontal attacks with closing speeds of above 1000 kph I got hit by the rear turrets on egress. The mission was to attack a 36 ship combat box formation, I was the only ac attacking. I did four passes, downed four bombers and on the fourth one my wing got taken off during egress. I never got hit when attacking from the front, but when behind the bombers the gunners hit me. I always flew in a slight curve, always doing around 700 kph TAS.

The gunners dont even have a two second time frame in which to take lead, aim and shoot before I am out of range. Also the compensating gunsights of the turrets are completely useless in this situtation, as the speed difference makes the lead algorithm invalid. The algorithm calculates for a partial value of the own speed to adress faster approach speeds of fighters. In case of moving away from the gunner the calculated lead is in the opposite of the necessary way and completely off.

Losing the wing may be attributed to well known DM problems, but even getting hit consistently makes no sense in this situation to me.

I've been working on a SP mission for myself and have a nice B-17 group that comes in and carpet bombs an area. I have 3 groups of fighters engage this group. The B-17s are defended with P-51s and Spits (4 each for 17 bombers) and before this patch the B-17s would get slaughtered, now, not a single German fighter survives! Those gunners are definitely helping to defend the B-17s... lol

i just did two shorter attempts to attack a bomber formation of 24 B-17s with average skill. gotta test the different attack patterns to be sure. as for starters i tried a high six attack with evasive maneuvers but got wrecked pretty quickly.

my first impression was that they are too accurate but of course that could have been out of poor flying too. also we were only three planes engaging with some distance so all the bombers could focus on one of us at a time.

it is alot of fun thats for sure.

on the other hand the 88s take out a B17 formation with results so impressive that Berlin would probably never burned, if the RL counterparts would have similar results.

Over all all flak guns seems way to accurate to me.

on the other hand the 88s take out a B17 formation with results so impressive that Berlin would probably never burned, if the RL counterparts would have similar results.

Over all all flak guns seems way to accurate to me.

What are 88s called in game? Flak 37?

on the other hand the 88s take out a B17 formation with results so impressive that Berlin would probably never burned, if the RL counterparts would have similar results.

Over all all flak guns seems way to accurate to me.

How many guns are you placing in your batteries? (4 being historical)

I have a formation of 12 B17s flying over a battery of 6x 88mm guns, at 25,000 feet, doing 210 MPH.These B17s are flying straight and level - that is, doing none of the historical weaving and altitude changes that were necessary to avoid flak at this time of the war.

The formation will typically lose 1 aircraft, and this is due to the DM being weak. I've never had more than two of the 12 shot down by the battery.

I have no qualms about the flak accuracy, based on these tests.

What are 88s called in game? Flak 37?

Yes.

on the other hand the 88s take out a B17 formation with results so impressive that Berlin would probably never burned, if the RL counterparts would have similar results.

Over all all flak guns seems way to accurate to me.

yes thats true went back to the flak script, maybe higher flying b17 do the trick. everything that flys at the standard me 6000 and something feet is mince meet tho

yes thats true went back to the flak script. still have the feeling ai gunners are way to accurate too.

How are you guys setting the flak and the bombers up?

Am I the only person who's getting "realistic" results...

Yes.

I set up a mission where B-17s fly at 25,000 feet over some flak batteries. Not a hit has ever been scored.

I set up a mission where B-17s fly at 25,000 feet over some flak batteries. Not a hit has ever been scored.

Your experice is quite similar to mine then.

25,000ft is getting real close to the max range of the 88mm shells in game (historical ranges vary from max of 10km to 14km, depending on specific gun).

[[Even then, at 25000ft a gun has to be directly beneath the bomber for it to be 25,000ft away. As soon as the bomber moves past the overhead, the range from the gun is more than 25000ft.]]

I suspect the other guys have their bombers flying much lower, which means they are exposed to the fire for a greater period of time.

Typical B17 raids were bombing from 18,000 to 25,000ft.

Example from 562nd Squadron diary:

May 1 1944 Bombing of Metz Railyards - 19,500ft

May 7, 1944, Bombing of Berlin, - 25,000ft

May 11, 1944, Bombing of Liege, - 20,500ft

May 12, 1944, Bruy Czech, - 21,500ft

June 15, 1944, Baeuvoir, - 24,000ft

June 18, 1944 Bremen, - 26,000ft

June 19, 1944 ChateauBernard, - 23,000ft

July 17, 1944, Rouen, - 25000ft

source:

https://books.google.de/books?id=zjWi5e9BR9IC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=bombing+of+Caen+altitude&source=bl&ots=1_hYr29a0p&sig=jaeFYYYqP9jOXAzEnD2RtTSLS6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJgtGa793UAhXJ1BoKHRj5AusQ6AEIRjAE#v=onepage&q=bombing%20of%20Caen%20altitude&f=false

i just set them to the mission editors standard 6562 wich is probably why they got shot up very badly. does bombing work from 25000 feet?

i just set them to the mission editors standard 6562 wich is probably why they got shot up very badly. does bombing work from 25000 feet?

Yes, it works. Absolultey.

It's beautiful from the historic altitudes..!

See from 13:30 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa5-Ty-3d3Q

In that video the bombers are flying over a 6x 88mm gun battery also.

As others have pointed out as soon as the damage model of the B-17 is improved,the 88's won't be as effective.

You all know,at present the Ai B-17's are way too weak,and get destroyed as if they were made of balsa wood,this is where DCS need to target improvement,and I'm sure they are aware of this flaw.

After all,they weren't called ' Flying Fortresses ' for nothing.I usually,nay,always fly the Spit and P-51,but couldn't resist myself flying a Fw190 when the AI B-17G's were released to see how the damage model of the B-17 stacked up.

Now I'm no fighter ace by any chalk,but I was destroying them as if they were penny arcade rifle targets,in most cases after a minimal amount of hits,the wings just fell off.

Yes, it works. Absolultey.

It's beautiful from the historic altitudes..!

 

 

See from 13:30 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa5-Ty-3d3Q

 

 

In that video the bombers are flying over a 6x 88mm gun battery also.

looking good! the flak puffs are a bit weak and you can hardly see them, no idea if thats realistic or not but surely with the new damage model arriving we are in for treat! im thinking about hosting a little pvp multiplayer bomber attack mission. something like 24 B17 plus 4 escort planes against maybe 8 attackers and flak, its still an early stage but it would be epic.

How many guns are you placing in your batteries? (4 being historical)

I have a formation of 12 B17s flying over a battery of 6x 88mm guns, at 25,000 feet, doing 210 MPH.These B17s are flying straight and level - that is, doing none of the historical weaving and altitude changes that were necessary to avoid flak at this time of the war.

 

The formation will typically lose 1 aircraft, and this is due to the DM being weak. I've never had more than two of the 12 shot down by the battery.

I have no qualms about the flak accuracy, based on these tests.

I tried them at 5000 meter with 300 kph, 4 flak guns, 16 bombers and 4 bombers died before reaching the bombing target and one more when leaving. I will try it again at different settings today.

Did anybody already check if the 88 fires at low flying fighters?

im thinking about hosting a little pvp multiplayer bomber attack mission. something like 24 B17 plus 4 escort planes against maybe 8 attackers and flak, its still an early stage but it would be epic.

I've been hosting similar events each sunday night for the past few weeks.

Should have that mission from the video finished for this weekend.

I'll be live streaming the mission completion some evening this week (I am EU timzone) on the same channel.

I tried them at 5000 meter with 300 kph, 4 flak guns, 16 bombers and 4 bombers died before reaching the bombing target and one more when leaving. I will try it again at different settings today. Did anybody already check if the 88 fires at low flying fighters?

5000m is much too low. They will get mauled down there, yes.

Try a minimum of 7000m (22,000ft) and at 310 to 320 kph (200-210 mph).

I haven't tried the guns against low-level fighters yet...that's another job to do!

then id like to join if theres room free!

also one thing that would be awesome is to let them take off from multiple airfields rejoin attack and land. must be an epic view for escorts. please ed make that happen :D

then id like to join if theres room free!

also one thing that would be awesome is to let them take off from multiple airfields rejoin attack and land. must be an epic view for escorts. please ed make that happen :D

You can get the formation to split up and land at seperate fields already. . .