ED, tell us where DCS is going (are we just customers, or friends?)

there is a thread asking for release of SDK. I wouldn't go so far, as many correctly noted, this would open gates to hacking and misuse.

What is absolutely frustrating is the fact, that after almost every .x.y update mods stop working.

ED, please tell us, are we just customers and should just swallow what you cook, or you consider us partners, as many people from the DCS community are contributing with their mods, skins and missions greatly.

We would like to know why mods are broken almost every time you make new .x.y version of DCS, is it on purpuse or is there a systematic approach to support modding in sight? Just look at Flight Simulator series - for the last 12 years as it was abandoned by Microsoft it was kept alive by vast number of contributors, both payware and freeware.

Is there a hope, you will finaly release a version, which will be stabile in terms of modding content, or we will see more of disregard of modding community?

DCS and many parts of it are in constant development i.e. in constant beta. Many modules are unfinished for years. We took that on board, we swallowed early access in order to support you. I personally own many modules just out of support, I rarely fly them.

But at the same time I feel sorry for people, who are making great add-ons for free, and they see them not working after updates. That is frustrating both for them and for us, the users, or customers, call us whatever you like.

As one of the posters in that SDK thread pointed out - modders are working in line with ED, not against it!

there is a thread asking for release of SDK. I wouldn't go so far, as many correctly noted, this would open gates to hacking and misuse.

 

What is absolutely frustrating is the fact, that after almost every .x.y update mods stop working.

 

ED, please tell us, are we just customers and should just swallow what you cook, or you consider us partners, as many people from the DCS community are contributing with their mods, skins and missions greatly.

 

We would like to know why mods are broken almost every time you make new .x.y version of DCS, is it on purpuse or is there a systematic approach to support modding in sight? Just look at Flight Simulator series - for the last 12 years as it was abandoned by Microsoft it was kept alive by vast number of contributors, both payware and freeware.

 

Is there a hope, you will finaly release a version, which will be stabile in terms of modding content, or we will see more of disregard of modding community?

 

DCS and many parts of it are in constant development i.e. in constant beta. Many modules are unfinished for years. We took that on board, we swallowed early access in order to support you. I personally own many modules just out of support, I rarely fly them.

 

But at the same time I feel sorry for people, who are making great add-ons for free, and they see them not working after updates. That is frustrating both for them and for us, the users, or customers, call us whatever you like.

 

As one of the posters in that SDK thread pointed out - modders are working in line with ED, not against it!

I made the same observation in another post.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4212742&postcount=13

Hi

 

As you are aware SDK is not public, things can and do change with DCS, development is constant.

 

It is up to the mod developer to adapt to those changes.

 

Thanks

It's understood that this is the reality of the relationship.

Perhaps looking at how development of the game Squad might help ED understand the value of seeing modders as an asset instead of just creative customers. Their modding community has improved the core game greatly and made the game more profitable.

If there is a way to adapt the relationship you have with modders it may well benefit everyone. Yes I am aware of the realities of licensing and security issues that could put ED at risk from various governments.

There is a massive difference between A3, Squad, MSFS and DCS in terms of mods.

Very simply, DCS is a free platform, the others all cost to buy.

If you unlocked mods to full potential but did not "gate" the quality, what we would get in DCS would already be out of control, with poor and/or unequal standards which would be inconsistent for the player. DCS makes its name on the high standards of those modules. Humbly, I think this is DCS feature differentiator. Steam content for A3 differs wildly in its quality, but at that point, the core game already had it's money in the bank. The rest follows. People dont judge squad or a3 or MS on their mods, they are seperate entities. But the module sin DCS are of such significant quality that they can be judged by themselves.

SDK access is not a barrier. It's a marketable standard. There is a reason you dont see the A4 or MBB finishing radios, doing campaigns, polishing docs, doing switches and keybinds, giving added extras, they simply dont have to because they set their own requirements. The consumer is protected by those standards, and thus as a consumer, I much prefer the odd scandal of VEAO getting binned and the quality being something we can "demand", over a complete free-for-all.

Anyone has the potential to email Wags, show them their work, enter a deal, give up their control and make money. It's not a science. But, very few have the team control, orgasnisation, breadth of knowledge to achieve ED's standards, dont let mod teams kid you on in that respect. They literally dont want the hassle of having to adhere to that standard.

There is a massive difference between A3, Squad, MSFS and DCS in terms of mods.

 

Very simply, DCS is a free platform, the others all cost to buy.

That is an interesting distinction. I am not sure it is as profound as it is being presented as though.

 

If you unlocked mods to full potential but did not "gate" the quality, what we would get in DCS would already be out of control, with poor and/or unequal standards which would be inconsistent for the player.

I have no idea how old you are or how much experience you have with games and mods so I'll be gentle. :) This has been said a billion times about mods. However, games with thriving modding communities are always the most profitable and long lived.

Mods exist in a free market. The good ones are used and the bad ones are not. The good ones amplify the sales of the product and the bad ones simply never get traction. This may not sit well with armchair warriors but it is the reality of what happens.

DCS makes its name on the high standards of those modules.

You're joking right? DCS exists - in the current state - because there is exactly zero competition. If you examine the scripting of the modules, and the skins, and you look at the folder structure - basically everything that is open to be looked at you will see it is a complete mess of barely working items that obey no consistent standards across the products.

If you get into skinning and attempt to skin the premier product from ED the F-18C lot 20 you'll find that the model is misshapen, with folds sticking out the bottom from the top. Various pixel densities exist across the skin files...

SDK access is not a barrier. It's a marketable standard.

I assume you mean market standard. There is no market. There are currently slightly more than 500 players playing DCS.

Here are how many people have been playing Half-Life, a 1990s game with a thriving modding community https://steamcharts.com/app/70

Here's how many people are playing Day of Defeat, a BF1942 mod, and moved to the Source engine. https://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Day+of+Defeat

Anyone has the potential to email Wags, show them their work, enter a deal, give up their control and make money. It's not a science.

Yes, and as we can see there are an endless list of developers who enjoy working with ED so much that they are going out of their way to invest in reaching those 500 players.... Tell me about your business degree.

But, very few have the team control, orgasnisation, breadth of knowledge to achieve ED's standards, dont let mod teams kid you on in that respect. They literally dont want the hassle of having to adhere to that standard.

Perhaps you are better at reading minds than you are at business.

It always amaze me, when a newbie attempts to teach a veteran :)

ED could help the mod community add value to their product easily by doing two things.

1. Giving a roadmap of core game changes so that mods could plan their workload through knowing when they will have to rework things. Not some promise list that ED hates to be caught by, but a list of functions that are going to be changed or likely changed.

2. Releasing mapping tools. If modders could map for DCS World the entire planet would exist in game by now. How much more likely would you be to buy a module if you knew you could fly it anywhere you want instead of the same three dated mostly empty maps? I don't own Normandy so no idea how good or not it is.

Is this not an acceptable compromise? Isn't this a low risk way of increasing the popularity of your game?

It is up to the mod developer to adapt to those changes.

I totally agree with this statement. The times when games were hardly updated and the code pretty much stayed the same are a thing of the past. Most new games are updated on a regular basis. Even games like the Sims 4 which has a huge modding community is constantly updated to the point of breaking mods. This leaves only the best modders around that stay on top of things with updates to their mods.

I totally agree with this statement. The times when games were hardly updated and the code pretty much stayed the same are a thing of the past. Most new games are updated on a regular basis. Even games like the Sims 4 which has a huge modding community is constantly updated to the point of breaking mods. This leaves only the best modders around that stay on top of things with updates to their mods.

+1

Well said.

Modders need to keep up with the main game, no doubt about that.

@RaTzo

What amazes me is when people start mistaking DCS as a game, when it is in fact a SIM. yes the differences are small, but the difference in STANDARD is huge. These modules are of high quality, the systems are super complex, even if you choose to ignore them. You can dig into almost any game and find problems if that is all you're looking for. Funny that the complete mess that is the A-10C, F-18 or F-16 even gets off the ground, or moves. I mean there must be a small community of tiny wizards just barely able to catch their breathe, just to get the engine started.

There are currently slightly more than 500 DCS users ON STEAM. Wasted data collection as it doesn't show the complete user base. Therefore it is not applicable to this conversation. I think you might want to sell your HOTAS system and move over to these other titles you care so much about, because you clearly are not enjoying DCS like the rest of us.

I assume you mean market standard. There is no market. There are currently slightly more than 500 players playing DCS.

Steam currently lists ~1000 players for the last 30 days average and I'm betting the number of players using standalone is much higher.

Modders that care about the quality and longevity of their mods take the time to update them in order to work with newer versions of DCS. The VPC objects mod is such an example, where the creator released a patch that made the mod compatible with 2.5.5 and I'm confident another one will be released for 2.5.6, in due time. Modders that don't take the time to update their mods would be a detriment to the continued development of DCS anyway.

Good mods last, bad mods don't and some mods aren't needed after a point; that's the nature of modding. DCS already has a few different offices and sometimes it's complicated to coordinate between them, imagine if you involved modders as well. Besides, open nature of the game files means that adapting mods isn't hard. I've already adapted most of the mods on my PC to work with 2.5.6, with the exception of some object mods.

One thing that I'll give you is that ED could certainly release a document that describes core file changes, making it easier for modders to adapt their mods. But that's it.

I disagree with the map tool, since maps in DCS are far more detailed than map in other flight sims. There are quality, game performance and disk space considerations to be made and it stands to fragment the online player base even more.

@RaTzo

What amazes me is when people start mistaking DCS as a game, when it is in fact a SIM.

oooooh are you a Pilot Mav?

 

yes the differences are small, but the difference in STANDARD is huge.

See my above.

You can dig into almost any game and find problems if that is all you're looking for.

This is an absolutely true statement. However, with DCS you have to try to figure out how this particular module works because they are mostly setup differently.... you'll notice a distinct difference.

How many games have you dug into?

 

Funny that the complete mess that is the A-10C, F-18 or F-16 even gets off the ground, or moves. I mean there must be a small community of tiny wizards just barely able to catch their breathe, just to get the engine started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

There are currently slightly more than 500 DCS users ON STEAM. Wasted data collection as it doesn't show the complete user base. Therefore it is not applicable to this conversation.

If you go to your user profile at digitalcombatsimulator.com you will find their data. As I type there are 955 players. Can you supply a reference that this is only counting players on Steam? EDIT: At the time of my previous post that number was about 500 players.

I think you might want to sell your HOTAS system and move over to these other titles you care so much about, because you clearly are not enjoying DCS like the rest of us.

You can think whatever you like I suppose. When did you also become a mind reader? When did the "rest of us" elect you Speaker of the Forums? ;)

Seriously dude, I didn't kick your cat. Just typed some plain facts and made what I consider to be perfectly reasonable suggestions. If you don't like them explain why... but leave the mind reading to the Mentalists.

Steam currently lists ~1000 players for the last 30 days average and I'm betting the number of players using standalone is much higher.

Yes it does. Was around 500 listed by http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com - under your profile when I was typing that.

https://steamcharts.com/app/223750

On average DCS gets between 500 and 900 players. There is an upward trend, but this is for the Steam version.

I don't know how to get ED's historical data myself.

900 players is great compared to 500, but it still is 1/4 of what it would be if there were mod teams able to produce high quality mods. Of course I'm speculating - but I'm doing so based on more than 30 years of experience with these games.

EDIT: MS FSX gets 2000+ players for the last 4 years and it is a weak title. https://steamcharts.com/app/314160

There are 86997 registered forum users. I highly doubt DCS player base is 900 players and the rest are just here to chat...

Yes it does. Was around 500 listed by http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com - under your profile when I was typing that.

 

https://steamcharts.com/app/223750

 

On average DCS gets between 500 and 900 players. There is an upward trend, but this is for the Steam version.

 

I don't know how to get ED's historical data myself.

 

900 players is great compared to 500, but it still is 1/4 of what it would be if there were mod teams able to produce high quality mods. Of course I'm speculating - but I'm doing so based on more than 30 years of experience with these games.

 

EDIT: MS FSX gets 2000+ players for the last 4 years and it is a weak title. https://steamcharts.com/app/314160

Yes it does. Was around 500 listed by http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com - under your profile when I was typing that.

 

https://steamcharts.com/app/223750

 

On average DCS gets between 500 and 900 players. There is an upward trend, but this is for the Steam version.

 

I don't know how to get ED's historical data myself.

 

900 players is great compared to 500, but it still is 1/4 of what it would be if there were mod teams able to produce high quality mods. Of course I'm speculating - but I'm doing so based on more than 30 years of experience with these games.

 

EDIT: MS FSX gets 2000+ players for the last 4 years and it is a weak title. https://steamcharts.com/app/314160

You'll find that most experienced player's that have been part of DCS for a long long time don't go near Steam as like to get the download directly and not have steam software running (Particularly VR users). So yes 500 players is a total nonsense and not sure why its even been mentioned as delusional.

That aside to release SDK would be a huge mistake and possibly open up DCS to more exploits in the multiplayer arena - one which i certainly wouldn't want. Bad enough that people can turn their trees off or down when should be server enforced!

Releasing mod tools has never hurt a single game.

It has made it harder to sell DLC, but that only affects short sighted developers. If you help modders they create all the DLC you can imagine and you sell more of your core game.

Of course the core game for DCS is free - but the aircraft are not. The aircraft are the game. There is no actual game without purchasing a module. Sure you can fly in the free aircraft and use them, but the vast majority of players won't enjoy that for long. So, the idea of this being an issue is really not a valid concern IMO. You may think otherwise if you like.

After a 20 year career as an Avionics Technician in the Canadian Air Force I chose to get out and become a professional photographer.

Lots of photographers I know get upset at the people offering their work for free, or next to it, or the people with cameras at weddings..... I always say the same thing: "If I cannot compete with people who work for free or next to it, I have no justification for charging my clients anything."

As for maps being complicated and high quality..... what about them is complicated? Deciding which frequency each TACAN should be on??? As for quality, well ED is working on the PRESENTATION of these maps. The new lighting system has real promise. They have done very very good work with this.

However, the maps themselves are largely empty. Yes simulators introduce levels of complexity that are not present in other types of games - that's why ED should be making the GAME, and letting people put pretty things in it.

They should also be charging for the core game. Giving it away for "free" seems to me (perhaps not to you) as a built in excuse for the state of it.

DCS is an amazing product, but it could be SOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Our experience in game could be so much more full.

People could have so much more incentive to spend a couple of thousand dollars on input devices and more on beefy computers to run it....

And guess what. If you don't want to use a mod... you wouldn't actually have to.

You'll find that most experienced player's that have been part of DCS for a long long time don't go near Steam as like to get the download directly and not have steam software running (Particularly VR users).

And you're telling me this why exactly? Did I suggest otherwise? Did I give you some reason to think I am not aware that it is far better for most players to use Standalone? Please do quote me.

So yes 500 players is a total nonsense and not sure why its even been mentioned as delusional.

While I deeply enjoy being called delusional by someone who lacks the ability to read, I would suggest you quote me getting that number from Steam. Please... do quote me.

That aside to release SDK would be a huge mistake and possibly open up DCS to more exploits in the multiplayer arena - one which i certainly wouldn't want. Bad enough that people can turn their trees off or down when should be server enforced!

Fear mongering and name calling. This must be the Interwebs!

Not sure why this matters to some... but anyway

Here is what Steam reports compared to what ED reports.

oooooh are you a Pilot Mav?

 

See my above.

 

This is an absolutely true statement. However, with DCS you have to try to figure out how this particular module works because they are mostly setup differently.... you'll notice a distinct difference.

 

How many games have you dug into?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

If you go to your user profile at digitalcombatsimulator.com you will find their data. As I type there are 955 players. Can you supply a reference that this is only counting players on Steam?

 

You can think whatever you like I suppose. When did you also become a mind reader? When did the "rest of us" elect you Speaker of the Forums? ;)

 

Seriously dude, I didn't kick your cat. Just typed some plain facts and made what I consider to be perfectly reasonable suggestions. If you don't like them explain why... but leave the mind reading to the Mentalists.

1. Not a pilot, luckily I don't need to be to enjoy DCS. Which mind you is exactly what I do, I enjoy it.

2. Saw above, didn't see anything that relates to the Standard. Moving on.

3. My gaming history goes back almost 30 years, as a player of course. I don't have to dig into games nor do i want to. I have learned to enjoy what was given and use mods for those aspects I wish to change. Which oddly enough is exactly what I do in DCS, works pretty good. I know, shocker sense DCS as a whole is a disaster.

4. Funny. Glad I got more meat on my bones then that poor bugger.

5. Well, since your other two comparisons were from steamcharts, it made logical sense that you pulled YOUR DCS stats from there as well. My bad, my mistake, please forgive me.

6. There are tens of thousands of posts from people that do enjoy this SIM. Clearly you missed the election my man, so sorry. All seriousness dude, I can read. Makes it fairly easy to judge things. the "rest of us" is said in jest. sorry it was taken too literal

Look, you may have stated facts, but I feel (sorry there I go again) that you are not seeing the larger issue. Sure, those other games (that shall not be named to follow rule 1.15) have seen awesome life extension based on a fan base that loves them and continues to create more content for them. Those are great things to have. DCS as a whole is different though. The modules are what makes DCS what it is and 3rd Party Devs (basically modders, I think I will regret saying that) are apart of that system. I would hope you could see that. I like things just the way they are because it creates a level playing field as far as muliplayer goes. Offline - man do whatever you want. I don't know, maybe I am just stupid and don't understand this whole thing. Maybe I am just flying around making a fool of myself, but you can be damned sure I am going to have fun doing so.

Now to contact Ghostrider and request a flyby, maybe he has an Admirals daughter (over 18 of course).:pilotfly:

The actual modders comunity has builded mods as A-4C and others very good mods with the actual DCS "open" features, That dont need the SDK.

If someone like build anything more profesional, only need contact with ED team and present a module project, to convert them on a licensing 3rd party.

1. Not a pilot, luckily I don't need to be to enjoy DCS. Which mind you is exactly what I do, I enjoy it.

Because it is a GAME. ;) Stick with me. You get to good conversation at the bottom.

2. Saw above, didn't see anything that relates to the Standard. Moving on.

There are standards for vision to become an actual pilot. :)

3. My gaming history goes back almost 30 years, as a player of course. I don't have to dig into games nor do i want to. I have learned to enjoy what was given and use mods for those aspects I wish to change. Which oddly enough is exactly what I do in DCS, works pretty good.

Awesome! Why would you oppose modders having the ability to make even better mods then? Seems like you have learned to discern between good and bad mods.

I know, shocker sense DCS as a whole is a disaster.

I know it's your eyes, but you missed this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

4. Funny. Glad I got more meat on my bones then that poor bugger.

I'm not ashamed to say this went over my head. Perhaps I put on the brakes and you flew right by?

5. Well, since your other two comparisons were from steamcharts, it made logical sense that you pulled YOUR DCS stats from there as well. My bad, my mistake, please forgive me.

You are forgiven. However you missed me stating at least 3 times that I got my stats from the profile page on digitalcombatsimulator.com Oh your eyes...

6. There are tens of thousands of posts from people that do enjoy this SIM.

That may be the case. I'm not sure it is. There may be more than 10K, but I don't think there "tens of thousands". I state this because of the low numbers of shipped input devices and because ED cannot survive by selling completed products. Everything is early access for years, and as is often complained about most things are never finished. They move on to the next EA product, and let the previous one drift into maturity. The Huey come to mind?

Clearly you missed the election my man, so sorry.

AGAIN!?!

All seriousness dude, I can read. Makes it fairly easy to judge things. the "rest of us" is said in jest. sorry it was taken too literal

I was digging at you because you were digging at me. I'm not immune to the effects of typing on the Interwebs! :)

Look, you may have stated facts, but I feel (sorry there I go again) that you are not seeing the larger issue.

This seems like you might actually want a conversation. I have not read ahead. I skip Proverbs 18:13 every time.

Sure, those other games (that shall not be named to follow rule 1.15) have seen awesome life extension based on a fan base that loves them and continues to create more content for them. Those are great things to have.

Agreed.

DCS as a whole is different though. The modules are what makes DCS what it is and 3rd Party Devs (basically modders, I think I will regret saying that) are apart of that system. I would hope you could see that.

I'm hearing you. I agree with what I assume your point is about 3rd party devs, with the caveat that I agree with what makes you hesitant to say(write) it.

I like things just the way they are because it creates a level playing field as far as muliplayer goes. Offline - man do whatever you want.

I get that point. Totally. Lots of other titles (see I'm being polite and not calling them games hehe) have had to have pure servers and modded servers. You are correct about the difference in mindset between SIM players and "GAME" players. Where the simulation, and the natural restrictions and frustrations that come along with it, are part of the fun. There is no fun in competing with people who are not subject to the same restrictions and limitations.

I don't know, maybe I am just stupid and don't understand this whole thing.

I may have thought that once or twice, but you have redeemed yourself in my eyes anyway. Don't try to take that to the bank. They just laugh.

Maybe I am just flying around making a fool of myself, but you can be damned sure I am going to have fun doing so.

Sweet!

Now to contact Ghostrider and request a flyby, maybe he has an Admirals daughter (over 18 of course).:pilotfly:

Nice quote :)

Because it is a GAME. ;) Stick with me. You get to good conversation at the bottom.

 

There are standards for vision to become an actual pilot. :)

 

Awesome! Why would you oppose modders having the ability to make even better mods then? Seems like you have learned to discern between good and bad mods.

 

 

I know it's your eyes, but you missed this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

 

I'm not ashamed to say this went over my head. Perhaps I put on the brakes and you flew right by?

 

You are forgiven. However you missed me stating at least 3 times that I got my stats from the profile page on digitalcombatsimulator.com Oh your eyes...

 

That may be the case. I'm not sure it is. There may be more than 10K, but I don't think there "tens of thousands". I state this because of the low numbers of shipped input devices and because ED cannot survive by selling completed products. Everything is early access for years, and as is often complained about most things are never finished. They move on to the next EA product, and let the previous one drift into maturity. The Huey come to mind?

 

AGAIN!?!

 

I was digging at you because you were digging at me. I'm not immune to the effects of typing on the Interwebs! :)

 

This seems like you might actually want a conversation. I have not read ahead. I skip Proverbs 18:13 every time.

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

I'm hearing you. I agree with what I assume your point is about 3rd party devs, with the caveat that I agree with what makes you hesitant to say(write) it.

 

I get that point. Totally. Lots of other titles (see I'm being polite and not calling them games hehe) have had to have pure servers and modded servers. You are correct about the difference in mindset between SIM players and "GAME" players. Where the simulation, and the natural restrictions and frustrations that come along with it, are part of the fun. There is no fun in competing with people who are not subject to the same restrictions and limitations.

 

I may have thought that once or twice, but you have redeemed yourself in my eyes anyway. Don't try to take that to the bank. They just laugh.

 

Sweet!

 

Nice quote :)

I almost can't type this cause I'm laughing to hard, hopefully my vision clears from the tears, but probably not. I feel like Jester in an A-4 "This Kids Good!"

Man, leave my vision alone.

I do not oppose good/great mods at all, I have many of them I use in DCS and other "titles". But those have been created with tools we currently have. I'm not saying Lil' Johnny does have a great mod idea and that we should not let him/her try. I just don't want to risk opening up a can of worms that ED loses control of, cause I think most of us can agree that would/could be very bad as a whole.

Oh no, I got that link. Made me giggle like a school girl. It didn't go over your head as much as you didn't look over to the right side and see the scarecrow, that poor bugger.

I find distinction between users that complain about everything (basically hates everything) and those that report bugs, or start questioning when we are going to get features we were, and I very loosely say this, promised by ED.

I will make sure my secretary sends out the notices 2 months in advance next time with a read receipt in the email. I got you bud!

Interwebs are a scary place.

You could have told me the bank would call the cops if I tried that. You know how hard it is convince them to let me use my collect call on their computer to respond on this forum?

All in all man, I think we might have more in agreement then we think here. I think we are just messing up the details. Or it could be just me again, but at this point it is so much fun.:joystick:

Oh no, I got that link. Made me giggle like a school girl. It didn't go over your head as much as you didn't look over to the right side and see the scarecrow, that poor bugger.

OOOOOOH lol now I get it... slow like an A10 I am.

I find distinction between users that complain about everything (basically hates everything) and those that report bugs, or start questioning when we are going to get features we were, and I very loosely say this, promised by ED.

Same.

I got you bud!

Appreciated lol

You could have told me the bank would call the cops if I tried that. You know how hard it is convince them to let me use my collect call on their computer to respond on this forum?

All in all man, I think we might have more in agreement then we think here. I think we are just messing up the details. Or it could be just me again, but at this point it is so much fun.:joystick:

Agreed. I find that's the case fairly often. Sure you do too. :)