This ain't your mamas warthog

Hi!

I've been designing my own stick, throttle and rudder set for about a year now. The past 4-5 months I've worked probably 16 hours a day on this.

I started with a simple desire to cut some MDF wood an make me a center stick, throttle and rudders. Simple DIY style.

But, as I added more and more detail I realized wood isn't going to cut it :)

So, I tried ABS plastic sheets, but again, after adding more and more details and functionality I realized metal is the only way to go.

Given that metal gives me endless possibilities, I decided to go all the way and design a control set with force feedback, force loading and hydraulic damping.

Also, to try and design the set in modules.

The main modules would be : stick base, rudder base and throttle base. And then stick and throttle grips, and rudder pedals that could attach to the main modules. So that if you wanted to fly an F-15 and a P-51, you wouldn't have to do it with a A-10 or F-15 sticks.

The brains would be opencockpit servo cards and teensy boards.

After 4-5 months of hard work and sleepless nights I have come to a working design. Bare in mind, that I had gone through many different designs and spent hundreds of hour scratching my head trying to solve problems.

The design has now become too complex and expensive to build just one unit. But also too important and simply awesome to leave it in the drawer. (not trying to tap myself on the back here)

Because this is what has been missing all along, in my opinion. I cannot believe we do not have working commercial FFB unit available! It's 2012 dammit! The end of the world and we don't have it ?! :D

This thing has up to 90 pound of force loading on elevators, up to 40 pounds on ailerons and up to 200 on rudders. With servo motors programmed to position the springs to increase/decrease the force loading according to speed, altitude and G outputs from the game.

It also features dynamic hydraulic dampers, more damping at low speed, less damping at high speed. So that when you're on the ground, the stick has no spring tension, but it still feels stiff. Just like in a real aircraft.

It also features a servo motor hidden in the "stick tube" that acts as a stall shaker, also dynamic. So that it increases shaking as stall approaches.

Small motors for gun firing effects are also hidden in there.

It's a little bulky at the moment:D But that's because I've designed it with WWII warbirds in mind. As per my research, 109 and P-51 have about 90 pounds of force at the stick for a 5G turn.

But smaller desktop design is possible, with lesser force loading.

I am also designing stick grips, throttles and rudder pedals. Replicas that would be casted out of alluminum most likely. I would make all the tools and molds needed, but again, not cost effective for one unit.

I also have the concept for helicopter controls, with force trim by magnetic clutches just like the real thing. Will post pictures when the prototype is ready.

What I would need to do is, make a kickstarter or indiegogo campaign to see if there is enough interest for something like this to be produced in some quantity. At least 50 units.

Minimum cost for tooling and some machines, is about 5.000$

For a small production run, I've estimated the costs to about 1.000$ per set. But if there's interest for a couple hundred units, that can come down to 500-600$ for a full set of force feedback controls, which I think would be a deal of a lifetime.

I would also look for interest on other forums, it wouldn't have to just be Ka-50, A-10 and P-51 players. Boeings, Cesnas and warbirds, they could all use this design.

So before I make this post into my first published novel, I'll show you some renderings of CAD models I have so far:

So basically, this wil be a build / interest gathering thread.

All questions and suggestions welcomed.

sorry to be such a dork - I'm just putting it straight: Where is the FFB / force-trim ?!

(no need for great investments)

;)

Edit: Please don't get me wrong - but all DCS simulated crafts give you FFB out of the box - and it adds so much to be able to control your plane - not only the Ka-50.

It is a pity if you would make such enormous work if it would be without any feedback and "only" damping.

Have a look to get a idea:

look here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=83814

and here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89275

-whatever-

The render looks really nice!

:)

looks like a lot of work !!!

I would be in for something like this that actually has real forces, but you need to be able to mount a the warthog grip...

Flim is right - don't let the opportunity pass - and give possible customers the possibility to hook up a Warthog Stick via a PS2 extension that goes through your rod .

Edit:

and adding a P-51D grip can maybe solved like this when using the TM-Warthog and/or Cougar as a "carrier": DIY P-51D style grip for HOTAS Cougar

...I'm still scratching my head why TM don't offers a extension themselves....

@ PeterP : FFB is provided by the springs that are constantly going up/down from the pivot point of the stick. Small affordable rc servo motors drive the mechanism. No servo itself can provide 90 pounds (45 kg) of force on a 200 inch long stick, well at least not a cheap one.

Also, when using servos for the ffb directly, you need servo drivers which are about 150$ per axis, so, no go.

Your MS FFB mod is a great hack, but it's a one-off. We need more:D

Trim-fore controls are a concept on paper, not yet for show.

I'll be making all the grips of the available (or planned) DCS aircraft.

P-51 grip is the simplest, but I'm working on others...

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your MS FFB mod is a great hack, but it's a one-off. We need more

45 kg?! - I think most of the desktop jockeys would be happy if they would feel 2-4kg instead none at all.

Yes, 45 kg is the force needed to pull the stick in a P-51D to make a sharp 5G turn. Also in the 109. Fot the F-15 or other modern jets it's about 2 kg/G, so 10 kg for a sharp turn.

This is not a constant force however, in level flight it would be more like 5-10 kg. The greater the speed or G loading, the more force required to move the stick, up to 45 kg.

It is also easier to move a center floor mounted stick than a desktop one, more leverage.

And these number are for a centered, floor mounted stick.

For a desktop version, it would have to be less force and less realistic obviously.

But a desktop joystick uses hand movements that are not natural, it would probably be to uncomfortable with anything more than 2-4 kg max.

I've heard complaints that even the warthog spring is too much.

As to servo drivers, the 150$ ones are more of a FFB driver boards to which servos are conected. So they are pre programmed.

But be aware that even a 4 kg force on a 500 cm stick would be too much for a cheap servo, so I would need 200-300$ servos which isn't an option.

That's why I'm using springs with 20$ servos and 40$ servo boards whic can be programmed with a couple lines of code.

You hacking an old FFB joystick is a great project, for one unit. Im trying to build 100 so thats not an option.

But be aware that even a 4 kg force on a 500 cm stick would be too much for a cheap servo

500 cm stick = 5 meters - yes you are right 4kg would bend it even if the extension has no weight at all but is made of titan. (something that would be difficult to simulate in a CAD program)

sorry, hegykc - you asked for suggestions and I gave them to you.

I don't think its appropriate to tell what is impossible when there are many mechanical solutions out there that tell a different story.

I expect you to do the research - not the possible customer.

Whatever - I don't want to start a argument - I thought this can be discussed like grown ups and within the limits what is possible.- so I'm out.

- and I told nowhere you have to copy my FFB-mod.

edit:

I don't know how you are planning - but when I plan to get 200 units of a motor as a retailer - I'm sure to get a at least 35% discount on them before I even start the request.

I meant 50cm :)

And no need to apologize, we're just talking.

If I find 200 MS FFB2's I might mod them all :)

So how much for a P-51 grip?

So how much for a P-51 grip?

The grip will be printed on a 3D printer, that piece would be used to make molds for epoxy or aluminum casting.

So the actual piece would cost about 20 or 40$ in epoxy or aluminum and buttons/wires/bolts/paint.

They would be just bodies with buttons/switches, that could be attached to my FFB unit or any other DIY solution.

But the printer and accessories is about 1,200$. That's why I need more people interested.

I will make grips for A-10, F-15, Mig-21, Ka-50 and any other aircraft simulated in DCS.

So that if I find 100 people intersted, total cost would be 20$ or 40$ for grip material and 12$ for machinery per unit. Even with some extra margin that's about 40$ or 60$ for a grip. (+ postage which could be bundled)

That's because I would take no profit from this, well no cash that is. Only thing I would take from this is the printer which I would use for my other concepts.

But I'm just starting here, stick around to see that I'm actually well prepared and experienced to produce some results, when I have a couple finished prototypes then we'll talk prices.

But the concept will be the same for all the components,, no profits in cash, keep the costs to minimum so that I can get as many interested as possible.

INCREDIBLE work! As a fellow stick-builder and the pickiest simulator stick jockey I know... I'm floored. And I want it! (If I wasn't so poor.) The design looks solid, and it looks like you've got an excellent way to transfer forces to the grip. Stick with your guns on the high stick-force... personally I'd rather have that than dynamic trim centering. Wouldn't it be possible to program the servos to drive differential spring force, which would artificially center the stick somewhere other than dead center?

I must add, you've done some very nice renders as well.

Again, if I was in the market, I would at least buy plans for this. Really great stuff. If I can get to a place where I can start considering a new stick build, I'll buy at least a grip from you.

Wouldn't it be possible to program the servos to drive differential spring force, which would artificially center the stick somewhere other than dead center?

Thanks.

We're talking about helicopters, right?

As to my knowledge, there is no need to combine the FFB unit with force trim. Helicopter controls do not have force feedback from its flight surfaces as far as I know, only springs that return the stick, rudder and collective to their trimmed position.

I have a force trim unit concept done. With electrical magnetic clutches for trimming, and springs for center position. No servos or any programming needed. The force trim works without it being plugged into the pc/game.

It would be considerably cheaper than the FFB unit, since the FFB unit has to be sturdy and professionally built. Forces developed on the inside of the unit are in excess of 500 pounds max.

I'll have the CAD model in days to come.

I do plan on releasing plans for a wood/MDF DIY build, simplified version with lesser forces and cheaper hardware. But this one is a priority.

Looks very interesting. You have pictures of any prototypes?

Not yet, and there won't be any until the CAD drawings and models are complete. Since I'm not building this with hand tools, everything is either CNC laser cut, CNC machined, CNC bended or 3D printed. For precision and supreme quality.

I need to build everything "virtually" before I can have any working prototypes.

I'm interested!

Is the joystick a FFB USB HID device? As in, the spring force is directly handled by Windows's driver - not some third party program that relies on each game's API to feed into teensy?

I'm interested!

Is the joystick a FFB USB HID device? As in, the spring force is directly handled by Windows's driver - not some third party program that relies on each game's API to feed into teensy?

Teensy board is only used for buttons/switches/analog axis input. The FFB is controlled by opencockpits servo motors card.

The only requirement is that the game supports exporting certain parameters. In this case, speed as the most important for control loading.

Than if possible : altitude, RPM, throttle position, damage etc...

With extra parameters I can simulate other effects.

To my knowledge all the best simulators today support this. DCS with lua exporting.

But the FFB is not programmed through directx, as in commercial joysticks, and would work even if the game itself doesn't support FFB or if it is flawed.

Still looking for a FFB/ force loading system!! Have you made any progress with this?

You can look here for the latest info, I think this thread is long dead and replaced ;)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=104154

Sorry, didn't realise this was an old thread.

Dude, it's a 3 year old thread...

You have obviusly read his newer threads, so you can see what he has focused on, e.g. F/A-18 stick.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=104154

Still looking for a FFB/ force loading system!! Have you made any progress with this?

This is my holy grail. The design is one of my first, before I had any of the tools/machines I have now, or will have by the end of this year, and without any means to connect it to DCS. Now, with my workshop being close to operational, and more than one software solution to connect motors to DCS, everything needed is readily available and my knowledge is much greater.

I will re-do the design once I have the regular hotas prototype operational.

I'd say stop trying to run before you can walk. So far you've promised, grips at prices I don't think you can achieve, throttle grips, a warthog slew replacement, A-10C engine instrument panel, your own custom joystick gimbal and desk mount, desk or seat mounted ejection handle and now FFB controls using a cheap servo to tension a spring that is somehow supposed to provide 90lbs of loading (which means the servo still has to be able to provide 90lbs of loading to the spring).

 

So far you have delivered nothing.

 

Let's see an actual product before we start reaching for the stars. Focus on the stick grips first and when that is selling well, maybe consider something else.

I think you have this backwards. The designs are the baby steps. I can't spend 50k on a prototyping/manufacturing shop over a single idea/product. It's called "not putting your eggs in a single basket". I designed quite a few things now, and will design quite a few more before you see anything going for sale. 8 out of 10 new businesses fail, guess how many of them started over a single product?

There is more than one example of small flight sim product manufacturers that went out of business despite having a great product. They just couldn't recoup their investment fast enough because all of their profit margins had to be dumped on a single product, making it quite expensive and killing their quantities. I can spread the same profit margin over a dozen products, making them much cheaper. But I can only do that if I design all those products first. So without the throttles, gimbals, engine gauges etc. there are no cheap grips, and vice versa.

Mine is a long and hard (that's what she said!) way , but it's the right way.

Sorry, didn't realise this was an old thread.

Dude, it's a 3 year old thread...

 

You have obviusly read his newer threads, so you can see what he has focused on, e.g. F/A-18 stick.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=104154

I did? I can't remember. I think I found this particular thread while searching for a freaking FFB/Force loading system before my g940 dies.

Thanks for the thread though

@hegykc I will follow you like a hound! You should really team up with Milan from the MFG. He's also based in Croatia right? I bet you could come up with incredible things together!