Really digging the crosswind landings / realism.

Yesterday I posted a couple points that need addressing, but this is one element of the DCS experience that is really well done, and across all the modules I have tried it in... The crosswind landings!

There's key elements here that are all simulated very well:

1) on finals, you need to "crab" or fly at an angle off centre to remain in-line, so if you're landing runway 36 with winds 270 at 18kts, (from West to east) you'll be heading/facing left some, to keep your course/track going north.

2) smoke, other AI, windsocks, even custom placed windsocks, all fly, drift, float or otherwise wave about responding to the corresponding winds.

3) when getting closer to the ground, the winds reduce somewhat due to ground clutter etc

4) to avoid excessive lateral motion on the main wheels and reduce risk of flipping over, crosswind landing is the rare exception where you get to "kick it straight" or push foot hard on the right rudder in the eg. A second or 2 before main gear touches.

5) the moment the rudder is kicked, right in this eg, the yawing motion causes the left wing to rotate forwards some, the right wing backwards some, inducing a roll to the right, this must be corrected by left stick movement (” stick into the wind")

6) ensure the flare isn't held more than a couple seconds over the runway, or aircraft will rapidly drift right, off the Centreline.

7) once the main wheels are down, the aircraft will immediately want to yaw into the wind (like the nose wheel is steering left by itself). Some people might mistakenly think the wind will continue to push the aircraft to the right, but this is opposite, because once the main wheels are down, they become the point the aircraft yaws around.

Because the rudder& tailfin is a much larger surface area than the cockpit (relative to the crosswinds) the wind here is now pushing the back of the plane right much harder, thus it twists around the main gear, hence pointing the nose to the left.

8) Stick Into the wind still! It's amazing DCS got this right too, even with the oldest A10C module.. the wind blowing left to right is now building up pressure under the left side wing, as it is partially trapped by the aircraft fuselage. This can easily cause the aircraft to roll/flip over to the right, in this example, as even below landing speed, with the winds/pressure under the left wing, much more lift is being generated.

9) keep dancing on the rudders and once stabilized on the roll out, gently apply wheelbrakes. Be EXTREMELY careful when re-engaging NWS, as rudder will be required all the time to stay straight.

10) finally, be especially careful exiting the runway at anything over 10kts or so, the stronger the wind, the happier it will be to help you turn off the runway, into the wind, and it will amplify your turn left, and soon you out if you let it...

DCS gets every single element right here, the crosswind landing as I've detailed out here, goes way beyond the initial crab.

Some aircraft are easier than others, while they all behave very differently, the mirage is much easier to pop a tyre, the a10, while slower and larger wings, also offers greater flight surfaces, the Russian mig15 is perhaps the most tricky alongside the Viggen.

Setting 10kts crosswind (ground) is a great starting point to see the forces in action, while 25-30kts with turbulence set to around 80-100 gives a nice challenge that is great fun and very rewarding to pull off.

Thanks for this brilliantly done element of the sim ED

Unfortunately unless something changed recently you have a crazy amount of shear in DCS so while the landing mechanics are good the change in wind strength between ground level and 1000ft is a little over the top and unfortunately you can't change it.

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Unfortunately unless something changed recently you have a crazy amount of shear in DCS so while the landing mechanics are good the change in wind strength between ground level and 1000ft is a little over the top and unfortunately you can't change it.

 

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What are you talking about? Of course you can change it. The wind strength and direction is a variable at multiple altitudes that are configured in the mission editor. How ''crazy'' it is is entirely up to the mission. You can set all to 0, or you can have hurricane force winds just above the ground level if you want.

Well the wind at 1600ft is based on the wind on the ground and they can't be changed independently. Put in a 22 it crosswind and you get 47 it's at 1600ft so a massive amount of shear that you cannot change. Try it.

And yes 0 gives you zero but try it and you will see what I mean.

Unfortunately it makes it hard to teach good crosswind landing techniques as the amount of shear is unrealistic for 98% of normally experienced conditions.

Oh and I did report it years ago but I guess like the wind direction being incorrectly reported it appears to be to tricky to correct.

Tbh there is a lot of other stuff I wish was fixed first and as we control the weather it's not that big a deal just thought I would point it out.

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Ah, I see

Agree...they did a great job with crosswind landings. I jumped in another civilian Sim recently with reportedly the best,most realistic flight modelling, and the crosswind modelling flying the default Cessna was aweful.

+1 on that

It is strange how they made it impossible to edit wind at 1600

The transition from crabbing to straight just before touch down works pretty good (provided the rudders are calibrated properly... which mine aren't)

I made this clip for a different purpose, testing ATC in Powered Approach mode. I was checking if ED "secretly" fixed it but... it's still a mess:( There was a substantial crosswind during the test and it shows my attempt at straight in approach and transition to landing.

3) when getting closer to the ground, the winds reduce somewhat

 

4) to avoid excessive lateral motion on the main wheels and reduce risk of flipping over, crosswind landing is the rare exception where you get to "kick it straight"

3) As others have mentioned already, unfortunately the wind speed reduction due to the boundary layer is way overdone.

4) Especially in DCS it's important to note that there are aircraft which must be landed in full crab, e.g. the F-5 and the F-15. In the F/A-18 you should touch down with half the crab angle.

That said, I don't know which other simulators don't simulate crosswind similarly realistic.

Especially in DCS it's important to note that there are aircraft which must be landed in full crab, e.g. the F-5 and the F-15. In the F/A-18 you should touch down with half the crab angle.

Where is this info from ? While you can land a T38 in a partial crab that was not the desired technique. We always kicked it straight in the flare.

Never flown an aircraft that is landed without either kicking it straight or side slipping it straight at least partially.

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MiG-29 is also able to land in crab per manual

Where is this info from ? While you can land a T38 in a partial crab that was not the desired technique. We always kicked it straight in the flare.

F-5, F-15, T-38A, T-38C -1.

That's interesting info because Northrop expected during the development that you would push off the crab in the T-38, but they discovered that the rudder at approach AoA causes a lot of roll, so they changed it.

Just checked and even the USAF T-38C flying fundamentals manual mentions bold faced: maintain the crab until touchdown.

There's crapload of articles, posts and vids on the subject for every type of a/c you can imagine including... taildraggers :huh:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Vipers. These you really have to land in a crab... from what I hear.

For now I'll stick to Hornets (and Super Hornets:smilewink:) so... kick it to half crab.

Time to setup some serious winds!

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Vipers. These you really have to land in a crab... from what I hear.

Correct. On the F-16 it's especially important because the ARI switches off at touchdown. If you are applying any roll input at that time, undesireable yaw transients can occur.

F-5, F-15, T-38A, T-38C -1.

That's interesting info because Northrop expected during the development that you would push off the crab in the T-38, but they discovered that the rudder at approach AoA causes a lot of roll, so they changed it.

 

Just checked and even the USAF T-38C flying fundamentals manual mentions bold faced: maintain the crab until touchdown.

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Well, with a 30kts xwnd component you can't even take out the full crab angle on most planes ;)

I guess that depends too Tornado and B777 you can but it's a bit of an art with both ( 38kts in a B777 is fun but I have only done it in the Sim). Leaving the crab in a bit is valid technique but just not one I see very much , interesting about the F16 as I don't think I am capable of not kicking/pushing it straight, old dogs and new tricks etc.

Rarely have I been in a multiplayer server set to a significant wind tho, so I guess it won't matter too much, just wish it wouldn't double the surface wind at 1000ft automatically.

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just wish it wouldn't double the surface wind at 1000ft automatically.

+1 since this requires a fair bit of adjusting the crab angle on shirt final while this usually doesn't happen IRL.

Lucky guy with the 777 and the VC-10 like gear ;) The 767 was really difficult to grease on.

Never said I greased it on LOL.

I don't really understand why the wind is fixed relationship between the ground and 1600ft

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Never said I greased it on LOL.

 

I don't really understand why the wind is fixed relationship between the ground and 1600ft

 

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I did a little test few minutes ago... set up the wind at 30 knots with gusts and I flew at about 45* angle into it so crosswind comp was about 15. At first I flew at 520 kts with ghost VV half way between the center of the HUD and the frame. I was level at 1800' so according to ME weather config the wind should've been 60:huh: with crosswind comp 30. I slowly descended to 1000' maintaining a/s and the ghost VV didn't shift at all. I did the same at 300kts with VV almost pegged and the altitude transitions through 1600' made no perceivable difference... at least not to me. I suspect the value for 1600' in ME weather is BS:D

I also did some T&G's and full stop at 25 crosswind comp from overhead break... I haven't had so much fun in a long time:joystick:

MiG-29 is also able to land in crab per manual

:) Su-27 as well, per the manual.

Thanks, thought so, wasn’t 100%!

What are you talking about? Of course you can change it. The wind strength and direction is a variable at multiple altitudes that are configured in the mission editor. How ''crazy'' it is is entirely up to the mission. You can set all to 0, or you can have hurricane force winds just above the ground level if you want.

Well, they're all interconnected to each other. And if you set 10 knots on the ground, you'll have like 50+ knots at 500m regardless your 2000m setting. The system is weird to say the least.

Well, with a 30kts xwnd component you can't even take out the full crab angle on most planes ;)

After extensive crosswind training last weekend I think I can finally kick the rudders properly every time. With moderate crosswind there's probably no need for the kick. I noticed the surface effect on the wind is quite pronounced in DCS and I could see the VVI creeping toward the center as I passed the threshold... almost half the initial crab.

I think the biggest gain for me other then learning or re-learning crosswind landings was realization that some of my control axes were improperly setup, especially rudders.

It feels like a different jet now. NWS and especially NSW HI are a breeze now:doh:

What I'm not digging is how clouds at night when there is no moon or very little moon are white and bright as if it is day time. Completely unrealistic and cannot believe it hasn't been fixed yet. DCS is in dire need of an updated weather modelling system.

What I'm not digging is how clouds at night when there is no moon or very little moon are white and bright as if it is day time. Completely unrealistic and cannot believe it hasn't been fixed yet. DCS is in dire need of an updated weather modelling system.

They are working on it.

They confirmed they are working on a new and improved weather system but it's taking a lot of time and it's most likely going to be quite a while until we get it released