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And some allied pilots said in their interviews that they feared 190s, not 109s. All of those comments need to be put into context, when, where and how (which year, plane model and which skill level).

 

Longer stick helps many of us here, so if its not the violin, it is the violinist then. ;)

 

Got no intention entering into another debate with cherry picked data. You haven't proven anything, yet. Since I have no problems with how 109 is modeled (and is being polished) the burden of proving things is on you.

 

End of OT.

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And some allied pilots said in their interviews that they feared 190s, not 109s. All of those comments need to be put into context, when, where and how (which year, plane model and which skill level).

 

Longer stick helps many of us here, so if its not the violin, it is the violinist then. ;)

 

Got no intention entering into another debate with cherry picked data. You haven't proven anything, yet. Since I have no problems with how 109 is modeled (and is being polished) the burden of proving things is on you.

 

End of OT.

 

I have no problem flying the ingame plane, that's not the issue, the issue is that it doesn't fly as it should, which contrary to your claims I have proven multiple times with actual pilot testimony; of which all the say the same, thus there goes the cherry picking thoery out the window.

 

Thus the burden is actually on you to defend an unrealistic flight model, which so far you have been completely unable to do.

 

Anyway I have hope that the FM will be corrected sometime in the future and that these lovely aircraft will eventually all be represented in an objective and true to life manner.

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As for the latter, no it's not my opinion, and you're more than welcome to show me a single document which proves that laminar flow airfoils provide the superior lift that Yo-Yo claims at high speeds under operational conditions. Good hunting.
I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but indeed scientific method says it's you who has to prove it doesn't :smilewink:. And no, "stories" aren't any prove.

 

Doesn't help, it's the behavior close to CLmax where the ingame plane experiences flickery rolling behavior, and that's quite simply nothing like the real plane, sorry.
I would really like to understand exactly what's the behaviour you mean. Any real aircraft, and I mean any, even one supposed to have a "mild" stall as you say will roll itself depending on the stall conditions. If you stall an aircraft in high rev torque will get you upside down, it does in a really mild Cessna not to mention a 1800hp small fighter... If you stall an aircraft in a high performance turn, that's usually one wing stalls and the other not, you get upside down you want it or not. Depending you skid or slip the coordinated turn you'll stall one wing or another. So, I don't know exactly what you mean by "jerky & twitchy stalling behavior". Can you further explain or even better make a video please?

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but indeed scientific method says it's you who has to prove it doesn't :smilewink:. And no, "stories" aren't any prove.

 

Thing is I have provided useful material, incl. NACA documents and modern day flight characteristic descriptions :)

 

I would really like to understand exactly what's the behaviour you mean. Any real aircraft, and I mean any, even one supposed to have a "mild" stall as you say will roll itself depending on the stall conditions. If you stall an aircraft in high rev torque will get you upside down, it does in a really mild Cessna not to mention a 1800hp small fighter... If you stall an aircraft in a high performance turn, that's usually one wing stalls and the other not, you get upside down you want it or not. Depending you skid or slip the coordinated turn you'll stall one wing or another. So, I don't know exactly what you mean by "jerky & twitchy stalling behavior". Can you further explain or even better make a video please?

 

S!

 

I am not talking about the wing drop, which will happen during the stall, but which incidentally is also very mild on the real 109. What I am talking about is the exceedingly nervous behavior of the aircraft, esp. in roll, closing on the CLmax. The ingame aircraft rolls side to side in a flickering/shaking manner when flying close to the CLmax, a characteristic unheard of in the real aircraft.

 

It's as if the slats are banging in and out on the aircraft ingame, causing the aircraft to gain & lose lift on each wing multiple times a second.

 

It's hard to describe it anymore clearly as its frankly nothing like I've experienced in an aircraft before.

 

Anyway I have faith in the ED team and that they will get it right in the end, it's just that I think atm they are relying partially on some incorrect information in relation to real life operational conditions.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Sorry if you already said, but did you tried 1.5 and it's still there? I think haven't seen so much movement you mean but a near stall typical behaviour when you use ailerons while you should use rudder. Anyway I'll look for it just to check for myself.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I think the issue has to do with pitch instability at low airspeed.

 

At 400km/h the 109K-4 is statically stable. You can trim it for level flight, disturb the flight path, and it will follow the trim speed.

 

At 300km/h and below the 109K-4 is statically unstable. Trim for level flight, disturb the flight path, and it will begin to pitch up into a stall. So when you transition to 300km/h and lower airspeeds, you actually have to push forward on the control column to prevent the aircraft from pitching up and stalling.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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What I am talking about is the exceedingly nervous behavior of the aircraft, esp. in roll, closing on the CLmax. The ingame aircraft rolls side to side in a flickering/shaking manner when flying close to the CLmax, a characteristic unheard of in the real aircraft.
Still that sounds like the stalling behaviour. I mean, I've flown the quick dogfight and 109 is quite stable like a rock in high performance turns, it's only me when I pull further than stall who make that behaviour to happen, it's something like pre-stall behaviour, you're just not fully stalling the aircraft but a step behind. I haven't see any other behaviour there and roll stability depends on me as a long stick as I have requires a still hand to manage, but the aircraft moves what I move her. Anyway I will pay attention to subtle details next time.

 

 

At 300km/h and below the 109K-4 is statically unstable. Trim for level flight, disturb the flight path, and it will begin to pitch up into a stall. So when you transition to 300km/h and lower airspeeds, you actually have to push forward on the control column to prevent the aircraft from pitching up and stalling.
Well now I think I've experienced that, but only when I keep using 1.3 or 1.4 ATA after take off for instance. I mean you're describing torque effects and torque isn't any good thing to deal with at low speeds. I don't know nor I can know if real 109 had such a torque "kicks" but that match what I could read about the subject. That's the reason many pilots said for landing it was better lower the throttle to a certain point and let it there whatever happens. I can't know if such high torque effects can be possible as I haven't flown any so high powered aircraft in RL but I guess torque effects in such a small and high powered aircraft like 109 is aren't any better than what are seeing in game right now. You just have to be easy with the throttle, think a really small change in throttle here means couple hundred horsepower difference, that means high torque changes.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I mean you're describing torque effects

 

Torque is a force on the aircraft's roll axis. This pitch-up behavior is on the longitudinal axis and happens even when the engine has completely stopped.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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I think the issue has to do with pitch instability at low airspeed.

 

At 400km/h the 109K-4 is statically stable. You can trim it for level flight, disturb the flight path, and it will follow the trim speed.

 

At 300km/h and below the 109K-4 is statically unstable. Trim for level flight, disturb the flight path, and it will begin to pitch up into a stall. So when you transition to 300km/h and lower airspeeds, you actually have to push forward on the control column to prevent the aircraft from pitching up and stalling.

 

You mixed long-period (fugoid) behaviour and stability. In the fugoid movement the plane under certain conditions can get the speed limit.

The only criterium of stability is a stick position for 1g flight: the stable plane requires stick forward as its speed is growing.

In high-powered flight many propeller driven planes are instable.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I am not talking about the wing drop, which will happen during the stall, but which incidentally is also very mild on the real 109. What I am talking about is the exceedingly nervous behavior of the aircraft, esp. in roll, closing on the CLmax. The ingame aircraft rolls side to side in a flickering/shaking manner when flying close to the CLmax, a characteristic unheard of in the real aircraft.

 

It's as if the slats are banging in and out on the aircraft ingame, causing the aircraft to gain & lose lift on each wing multiple times a second.

 

It's hard to describe it anymore clearly as its frankly nothing like I've experienced in an aircraft before.

 

 

Sorry to ask, but are you sure that your controls are without jitter?

 

If you are very close to a stall, where the aircraft is very sensitive, jitter might cause the reaction you describe?

 

I did not try a violent roll yet, but tried to bring the aircraft to a stall by lowering the throttle to idle, and point the nose up.

 

Aircraft stalled very mildly at about 150 km/h IAS, and was easy controllable, even after the stall.

Nose down and she was flying again.

 

Putting throttle back at this low speed, you really feel the torque, even if you do it gently.

 

In hard turns I get shaking if pulling too hard, especially if I have not centered the ball before I pull hard.

Is that the behaviour you mean?

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No the shaking/buffetting is normal and should be there, it's the series of mini-departures that happens before the actual stall in turns which is the problem (i.e. the a/c is overly unstable), which makes the aircraft very hard to ride near the stall in turns.

 

By contrast the real aircraft is described as being very easy to ride near the stall in turns and the wing drop during the stall wasn't quick and sudden either, again thanks to the slats preventing the ouboard section of the wing from stalling before the rest.

 

Ironically it seems to be the slats which are causing the instability problems on the ingame aircraft when infact they should prevent such characteristics. At least it's the only aircraft currently ingame to feature such finicky close to stall behavior during turns.

 

PS: I don't use an FF or anything that would cause any jitter, and my stick is equipped with hall sensors. Also ingame 109 is the only aircraft to exhibit this behavior.


Edited by Hummingbird
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You mixed long-period (fugoid) behaviour and stability. In the fugoid movement the plane under certain conditions can get the speed limit.

The only criterium of stability is a stick position for 1g flight: the stable plane requires stick forward as its speed is growing.

In high-powered flight many propeller driven planes are instable.

 

This aircraft requires stick forward as its speed is decreasing [sic!].

 

I'll make a track this evening and post it.

 

P.S. After re-reading the definitions for static stability and fugoid, I'm pretty near certain that the behavior I'm describing at 300km/h is static instability and not fugoid behavior. In fugoid motion the angle of attack is nearly constant. What I'm describing is a changing angle of attack.

 

Does this sound accurate?


Edited by gavagai

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Torque is a force on the aircraft's roll axis. This pitch-up behavior is on the longitudinal axis and happens even when the engine has completely stopped.
Eeeeeemmmm, well strictly talking torque itself is the roll behaviour, but airplane torque as we usually call it is the sum of four different aerodynamic and gyroscopic effects and some of those effects like P-factor and propwash aren't related indeed to only roll but pitch and/or yaw depending on the situation. The pitch behaviour you described has only happens to me when I keep a high power at low speeds due to torque (you know, the overall torque effect, not only the physical torque).

 

I'll make a track this evening and post it.
It would be great to see in person.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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No the shaking/buffetting is normal and should be there, it's the series of mini-departures that happens before the actual stall in turns which is the problem (i.e. the a/c is overly unstable), which makes the aircraft very hard to ride near the stall in turns.

 

By contrast the real aircraft is described as being very easy to ride near the stall in turns and the wing drop during the stall wasn't quick and sudden either, again thanks to the slats preventing the ouboard section of the wing from stalling before the rest.

 

Ironically it seems to be the slats which are causing the instability problems on the ingame aircraft when infact they should prevent such characteristics. At least it's the only aircraft currently ingame to feature such finicky close to stall behavior during turns.

 

PS: I don't use an FF or anything that would cause any jitter, and my stick is equipped with hall sensors. Also ingame 109 is the only aircraft to exhibit this behavior.

 

Ok, thanks for explanation.

 

I tried to recreate the behaviour, but not sure if I got it right. :)

I can't seem to find that behaviour, but maybe it's just me.

 

Do you possibly have a track where you demonstrate it?

System specs:

 

Gigabyte Aorus Master, i7 9700K@std, GTX 1080TI OC, 32 GB 3000 MHz RAM, NVMe M.2 SSD, Oculus Quest VR (2x1600x1440)

Warthog HOTAS w/150mm extension, Slaw pedals, Gametrix Jetseat, TrackIR for monitor use

 

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This aircraft requires stick forward as its speed is decreasing [sic!].

 

I'll make a track this evening and post it.

 

P.S. After re-reading the definitions for static stability and fugoid, I'm pretty near certain that the behavior I'm describing at 300km/h is static instability and not fugoid behavior. In fugoid motion the angle of attack is nearly constant. What I'm describing is a changing angle of attack.

 

Does this sound accurate?

 

You mix things again.

 

To maintain 1g flight with the increasing airspeed the stable plane requires stick forward movement.

 

At high power rate at low speeds 109 IS UNSTABLE like some other high-performance planes.

 

If you compare the stick position at 270-300 kph IAS for 1.4+ ata poer ratings and in gliding conditions (power-off) you can see that in the first case stick is noticable fore than in the second at the same speed.

 

And it's exactly as it must be.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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So... now I can tell you myself :)

 

Finally managed to install 1.5 Open Beta yesterday, and spent some time testing mainly the K4, but also the D9 and the P51...

 

--> regarding the K4:

 

--) The new sound is great! Really like it over the previous version;

--) We can now adapt our aileron and rudder trim tabs, but the fine tuning of the FDM gives me perfect behavior with the default settings, so, I didn't touch it. Now it really is in perfect equilibrium cruising at 400 km/h;

--) I did find the toe brakes a lot more sensitive, but I am adapting to their new feel;

--) I did experience a weird roll hysteresis under one occasion, after a dive, but I was unable to reproduce... Will keep trying - it's probably the effect already mentioned by gavagai;

--) The new control stiffness feels EXCELLENT !!! Great work Yo-Yo - I guess this is now my preferred implementation among the sims I use !

 

--> Damage models:

 

--) It appears to me that the damage models of the p51 and k4 ( at least ) have been fine tunned. I like it the way it is now.

 

--> Performance:

 

--) Although I have read that there is still that reduction in FPS when some smokes / missiles / explosions occur, I didn't get into situations where it was evident. Overall the perfroamnce and the visuals look great to me!

 

---> Conclusion:

 

I am very satisfied with this update!

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Ok, thanks for explanation.

 

I tried to recreate the behaviour, but not sure if I got it right. :)

I can't seem to find that behaviour, but maybe it's just me.

 

Do you possibly have a track where you demonstrate it?

 

I can ride it near stall all day long. I too can't find that behavior, perhaps too much influence of other sims?

 

Would love to see the track or video explaining this in detail.


Edited by T}{OR

P8Z68 | 2500k @ 4.5 | GTX 1080Ti | 2x8 GB @ 1600 | TM Hog (extended 7cm) & MFG Crosswind (S/N 007) | TIR v5

WWII bomber formations | DCS P-51D: [TEST] TO distance / gross weight / temperature

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I humbly confusing concepts that are interrelated. The static equilibrium with a stable flight.

 

In the analysis it is confusing the center of gravity of the aircraft to the center of pressure (moving along the airfoil versus angle of attack and the flow velocity of the relative wind ..... .

 

Bring the stick forward to maintain straight and level flight is a property of a stable aircraft, since by design always intended that the center of gravity is forward of the center of pressure (which is where the aerodynamic force is applied) thereby lower the aircraft nose ..., because the moment of torque (weight-aerodynamic force).

 

Another point to note is that the static equilibrium of an aircraft can be divided into three categories according to the response of the aircraft to the disturbance of that balance (neutral, positive, negative), and that will not mean that is unstable. ..... but it reacts in a certain way to change state.

 

Interesting thread ......

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Ok, thanks for explanation.

 

I tried to recreate the behaviour, but not sure if I got it right. :)

I can't seem to find that behaviour, but maybe it's just me.

 

Do you possibly have a track where you demonstrate it?

 

Full power and apply as much backward stick deflection as you can to before the actual stall, i.e. ride the CLmax. This is almost impossible to do in the 109 ingame atm due to instability of the aircraft at CLmax.

 

What I experience when riding the Clmax ingame is a rocking of the wings in both directions of roll, incl. a noticable decrease in aileron effectiveness leading up to the stall.

 

Again this is completely unlike the real aircraft which is described as very stable with full aileron authority right up to the point of the actual stall which is also easily predicted beforehand with lots of warning in the form of buffeting. Furthermore the stall itself produces only a mild wing drop, i.e. no flicking on its back like the 190 would do, and recovery is instant upon releasing the stick.

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Apparently he says no spiking due to hall sensors.

 

Full power and apply as much backward stick deflection as you can to before the actual stall, i.e. ride the CLmax. This is almost impossible to do in the 109 ingame atm due to instability of the aircraft at CLmax.

 

What I experience when riding the Clmax ingame is a rocking of the wings in both directions of roll, incl. a noticable decrease in aileron effectiveness leading up to the stall.

 

Again this is completely unlike the real aircraft which is described as very stable with full aileron authority right up to the point of the actual stall which is also easily predicted beforehand with lots of warning in the form of buffeting. Furthermore the stall itself produces only a mild wing drop, i.e. no flicking on its back like the 190 would do, and recovery is instant upon releasing the stick.

 

Lets define some terminology here. What is "full power": 1.4 ATA or higher? How far back do you deflect the stick? 1/3, 1/2 or almost all the way back? What speed and altitude do you enter the turn?

 

Like others here, I experienced no such behavior. I can ride the stall all day long and anticipate it well before it happens. Aileron control is not decreased and recovery for me is simply letting go of the stick.

 

Please provide a track or better record a video explaining in detail what is wrong with the FM in this regard.


Edited by T}{OR

P8Z68 | 2500k @ 4.5 | GTX 1080Ti | 2x8 GB @ 1600 | TM Hog (extended 7cm) & MFG Crosswind (S/N 007) | TIR v5

WWII bomber formations | DCS P-51D: [TEST] TO distance / gross weight / temperature

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Full power and apply as much backward stick deflection as you can to before the actual stall, i.e. ride the CLmax. This is almost impossible to do in the 109 ingame atm due to instability of the aircraft at CLmax.

 

What I experience when riding the Clmax ingame is a rocking of the wings in both directions of roll, incl. a noticable decrease in aileron effectiveness leading up to the stall.

 

Again this is completely unlike the real aircraft which is described as very stable with full aileron authority right up to the point of the actual stall which is also easily predicted beforehand with lots of warning in the form of buffeting. Furthermore the stall itself produces only a mild wing drop, i.e. no flicking on its back like the 190 would do, and recovery is instant upon releasing the stick.

 

I tried as best I could, and maybe got some of the behaviour that you described at 1.4 ATA, but not too violent unless I really kept the stick too far back, and ignoring a lot of buffeting before.

Wing would drop if I kept riding the buffeting though.

 

I feel the more violent behaviour at 1.4 ATA might be due to the increased torque and effects from the engine and propeller.

 

I also tried at 1.2 ATA and the aircraft was easier to ride on the verge of stall here, but would still drop the wing if I kept pulling too hard.

 

However, in all instances I felt I kept the aileron authority, especially when I released the stick.

Could recover all stalls.

 

I attach my track here, mind you I'm not the best of pilots, just trying to pull as hard as the aircraft will allow.

 

Controllers are TM Warthog with no jittering (has Hall sensors), and Saitek rudder pedals which might do a little bit of jittering.

Kept the trim tabs at standard 0 values in order to keep the airplane as close as ED modelled it.

 

Would love if you and other people would upload your tracks as well, would always like to see how other people do, and learn more.

109 stall test track.zip

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System specs:

 

Gigabyte Aorus Master, i7 9700K@std, GTX 1080TI OC, 32 GB 3000 MHz RAM, NVMe M.2 SSD, Oculus Quest VR (2x1600x1440)

Warthog HOTAS w/150mm extension, Slaw pedals, Gametrix Jetseat, TrackIR for monitor use

 

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Full power and apply as much backward stick deflection as you can to before the actual stall, i.e. ride the CLmax. This is almost impossible to do in the 109 ingame atm due to instability of the aircraft at CLmax.

 

What I experience when riding the Clmax ingame is a rocking of the wings in both directions of roll, incl. a noticable decrease in aileron effectiveness leading up to the stall.

I also would like to see your track or video here. You're describing stalling the aircraft in purpose, almost trying a snap roll. If you keep pulling no magic slats will prevent you stalling the aircraft mate. Keep in mind even if you just maintain the pull as aircraft decelerates from a higher starting speed your pulling will virtually being increased as control stiffness is modelled, so of course you get into stall finally "just keeping the pull".

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I must be missing all this "proof" in this thread, just more white noise (not even a track supplied of this supposed incorrect behaviour). Pilot quotes are great, even used by Yo-Yo as has been seen, but us comparing our experience to a real WWII fighter pilot is pretty tough, the simulation tries its best but in the end, I think the input/feedback you get from true flight is what some people cant wrap their heads around and where many of the differences come from. Not to mention our control systems...

 

Having read many pilot comments on the 109 myself, I find that the aircraft functions like I would expect for the most part, sure, there are moments you have something happen in the sim that probably wouldnt happen in real life, but most of the time I am doing something in the sim I wouldnt be doing in real life to cause that.

 

Honestly, and Yo-Yo can correct me, but I think the FM is pretty close to final as it is.

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