[DCS BUG] AIM54 is PITBULL from the start at any range

Please don't let this thread devolve into another one of THOSE threads. If there is a bug involved the only thing that should be posted should be relevant ONLY to the F14 and the different Phoenix missiles and possible reproductions of the bug (or lack thereof).

I did the same for AIM54A MK60

And AIM54A MK47

They all have correct behavior.

It looks when the AIM54s go into pitbull, it wiggles a few times seems to 'look for target'. Once acquired it will start tracking. I saw this kind of behavior consistently, and also give me four friendly fires on BuddySpike. I want to say sorry to the unfortunate teammates who were close enough to the bandit that I fired upon.

The simple test mission is also attachedF14AIM54test.miz, please verify if you like. I will also ask my buddies to help me do more testing in the coming days. But I think this evidence is conclusive.

...

 

They all have correct behavior.... But I think this evidence is conclusive.

Let's wait your buddies.

Let's wait your buddies.

Sure, let's do some more tests with a buddies to figure out how to reproduce the bug, if there is any.

Just shot at any range (feel free to shot at max range too), do whatever... go cold, go on another server, go low in some canyon, ...just break your lock and watch your Phoenix.

An other major (old) issue in MP is missile's trajectory desynchronization as I report here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3850375#post3850375

It's on ED side I presume but it would be nice if Heatblur could push ED to rework their network code.

My friend seeing the Phoenix I fired at him going straight without big lofting was completely heartbroken and me too...

Just shot at any range (feel free to shot at max range too), do whatever... go cold, go on another server, go low in some canyon, ...just break your lock and watch your Phoenix.

OK, can you specify what should I do to reproduce the bug? So far I got no luck trying with an AI.

Just give me a very specific instruction. Where to start, in which mode to shot, and what should I do after launch.

Head-on you and your buddy. Max range TWS shot and do what i said above. After your shot, your buddy just turn 90° left or right... watch how missile tracking.

A couple of quick notes:

-The lofting desynchronization issue is not our bug. We reported it months ago to ED because we knew it would be an issue in MP servers, but it's not fixed yet.

-We have very little control over missiles once they leave the aircraft. We've been hoping to get more direct control over ordinance to no avail. I'll see if this bug is on our end or somewhere in the DCS missile code.

A couple of quick notes:

 

-The lofting desynchronization issue is not our bug. We reported it months ago to ED because we knew it would be an issue in MP servers, but it's not fixed yet.

 

-We have very little control over missiles once they leave the aircraft. We've been hoping to get more direct control over ordinance to no avail. I'll see if this bug is on our end or somewhere in the DCS missile code.

Thanks

A couple of quick notes:

 

-The lofting desynchronization issue is not our bug. We reported it months ago to ED because we knew it would be an issue in MP servers, but it's not fixed yet.

 

-We have very little control over missiles once they leave the aircraft. We've been hoping to get more direct control over ordinance to no avail. I'll see if this bug is on our end or somewhere in the DCS missile code.

This has been mentioned about the ED side like i say we did change host server, The lofting your also right sometimes they lofted and sometimes they did not.

-The lofting desynchronization issue is not our bug. We reported it months ago to ED because we knew it would be an issue in MP servers, but it's not fixed yet.

I assume that this difference in trajectory would explain this behaviour, where the missile will just kill an aircraft that is 15km away:

The target does not even get a launch warning, because on his side the missile is far away and already dead. I guess the missile made a loft, and so it had the energy to reach the target. But the target sees something else and does not even get a warning. That is a big issue in MP. I hope ED will fix this soon.

A couple of quick notes:

 

-The lofting desynchronization issue is not our bug. We reported it months ago to ED because we knew it would be an issue in MP servers, but it's not fixed yet.

 

-We have very little control over missiles once they leave the aircraft. We've been hoping to get more direct control over ordinance to no avail. I'll see if this bug is on our end or somewhere in the DCS missile code.

I assume that this difference in trajectory would explain this behaviour, where the missile will just kill an aircraft that is 15km away:

The target does not even get a launch warning, because on his side the missile is far away and already dead. I guess the missile made a loft, and so it had the energy to reach the target. But the target sees something else and does not even get a warning. That is a big issue in MP. I hope ED will fix this soon.

So it is a ED MP issue and seems long existing, and by nature should also affect all other missiles. That perfectly explains why I saw completely normal behavior of the AIM54s during single player testing last night. Whatever I did I could not replicate the bug reported in this thread in SP games against AI or attacked by an AI F-14B. Maybe the bug on the ED engine also explains why sometimes we see R27R/ER, AIM-7s kept tracking after launching A/C turned cold or lost lock or crashed.

Let's hope ED will fix this game breaking bug soon. And Thanks Heatblur, the F-14B is the best DCS experience I've ever had. Fantastic job!

I believe this bug is to do with the missile INS logic ED started implementing not too long ago.

It affects all missiles and it is simple to test.

Just set up a mission against the AI that makes lots of turns, fire a TWS shot on the aircraft from 60nmi then turn cold, radar off etc. and then watch the missile in externals. The missile will follow the heading of the aircraft but this is not tracking pitbull with radar it is pure INS driven.

You can test this with any missile any aircraft.

When the missile reaches pitbull range around 10nmi you will see it snap its nose on to the target, SARH missiles obviously don't snap on.

ED need to fix this asap.

I believe this bug is to do with the missile INS logic ED started implementing not too long ago.

 

It affects all missiles and it is simple to test.

Just set up a mission against the AI that makes lots of turns, fire a TWS shot on the aircraft from 60nmi then turn cold, radar off etc. and then watch the missile in externals. The missile will follow the heading of the aircraft but this is not tracking pitbull with radar it is pure INS driven.

You can test this with any missile any aircraft.

When the missile reaches pitbull range around 10nmi you will see it snap its nose on to the target, SARH missiles obviously don't snap on.

 

ED need to fix this asap.

So it's passively guiding on magical INS data that should only reflect last known intercept path, but is instead incorrectly continously updated with actual target data?

As far as I can tell, yes.

Missile receives magically updates to its INS even if you leave the server. You can launch AIM-54s and leave the server immediately after launch or switch to Observer. Just press F6 and look that through entire flight regime it receives updates and corrects its course for intercept. I have seen even AIM-54 doing a full hook left only to be shot down with R-73 from our squad mate who was already flanking F-14D from it's 9 o'clock' during an experiment, spotted AIM-54 on own 10 o'clock tracking back at him. It is hilarious behaviour to watch and certainly a bug.

Incredible.. is it only the Phoenix or other missiles too?

I need to try this when I get home, I still can't believe it :D

Best ET i ever seen :lol:

I have marked it as DCS bug, indeed most radar guided missiles are affected by it, I would strongly lean towards what Frostie suggested.

However, switching to spectators, etc might even increase the chance for this to happen. After observing it on servers for couple days, mostly it can be notched and most did not see behaviour like that. Poor connection, lag, etc can aid in that additionally.

A separate issue is the desynchronization of lofted missiles, which can appear in 3 different places, depending on point of view.

The guiding through a mountain also has been observed with several other missiles. This at least is a minor issue as the missile will still hit the mountain usually, but ofc it shouldnt happen either.

In any case, thank you for reporting it, we hope we can find a solution together with ED soon.

S!

Yes Microvax also mentioned it to that its ED DCS side to.

I believe this bug is to do with the missile INS logic ED started implementing not too long ago.

 

It affects all missiles and it is simple to test.

Just set up a mission against the AI that makes lots of turns, fire a TWS shot on the aircraft from 60nmi then turn cold, radar off etc. and then watch the missile in externals. The missile will follow the heading of the aircraft but this is not tracking pitbull with radar it is pure INS driven.

You can test this with any missile any aircraft.

When the missile reaches pitbull range around 10nmi you will see it snap its nose on to the target, SARH missiles obviously don't snap on.

 

ED need to fix this asap.

That's a pretty huge issue IMHO and should indeed be fixed asap

+1

Tried to reproduce in single player but no luck. As soon as I stop supporting the Phoenix it stops the loft and goes ballistic. If target is within FoV when it reaches pitbull range it snaps immediately but otherwise 1G flight. Doesn't matter if 54A or 54C, TWS or STT. Same results.

Will try in MP some other time.

I came back with data.

 

Unfortunately none of my buddies are available for some testing tonight. So I have to do some crude testing with AI.

 

In the mission editor, I created a new mission using Caucusus map. With an player controlled Heatblur F-14B on grid CH88 at 25000ft traveling east Mach 1.4. And a AI su27 on grid DH87 at 10000ft in a wide zigzag pattern centered on west at Mach 0.5. The separation was around 53 NM. And a single AIM-54C was fired at 45NM to the target in TWS mode (Jester in the back seat). After launch I immediately asked Jester to go silent on radar. I went to the back seat and verified that the radar is in standby position. The contact icon on the TID also disappeared shortly after about 3 second delay.

 

The AIM54C immediately went from the initial LOFT trajectory into a straight line. Although the Su-27 was cranking to the north west and turned to cranking south west, the AIM54C did not track at all.

 

Only after the AIM54c reached within 7.3 NM, it suddenly begin to track, because the Su-27 is passing in front of it heading south west(to its right). (See the tacview screenshot in the attachment) Of course it lacks the required energy to hit the target.

[ATTACH]206910[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]206911[/ATTACH]

 

In the zoomed out you can see there is a initial angle and all flying in INS and/or fox3 but no tracking until 7NM to the target and then lost track crashed into the ocean.

 

I guess this is concluded for AIM54C. No unrealistic tracking at all, and fox3 radar can only acquire Su-27 at less than 7NM.

 

More testing with AIM54As is coming.

So it seems documented now that the issue could be an MP bug , seemingly affecting all missiles, but being very visible for Phoenix.

This behaviour looks OK and demonstrate that missile works OK in SP.

Or.... it it?

The documentation is not that clear on what should be the IRL behaviour in the scenario described above.

The online documentation states that :

Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

 

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode.

Since the radar is going silent, it means, I guess, that the famous command to switch to ARH isn't sent by the WCS. So why would the missile suddenly track a target long after this when said targets is in range and passes through its radar? It shouldn't have switched to ARH since it didn't received a command to do so....

Or is the command sent when radar goes silent or TWS loses track before ARH range? In which case, what is the expected lifetime of the Pheonix ARH on-board radar? Should it be able to be live for the whole missile flight time in the above example?

Tried to reproduce in single player but no luck. As soon as I stop supporting the Phoenix it stops the loft and goes ballistic. If target is within FoV when it reaches pitbull range it snaps immediately but otherwise 1G flight. Doesn't matter if 54A or 54C, TWS or STT. Same results.

 

Will try in MP some other time.

You have to have the target crank from left to right, you will then see the seemingly dead missile follow the movements.