Have the Hornet devs moved back from the Viper? - Page 5

BoneDust · 11-08-2019, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cytarabine

I never get why people are so quick to criticize anyone who dares ask a question about early access particularly when there appears to be a lack of progress on key systems. If you are happy with the drip feed then great, however some people are clearly not, and I think that the release of the Viper drawing staff away from the Hornet has added to that feeling and it is only natural to ask questions.

+1

LastRifleRound · 11-08-2019, 08:35 AM

The Early Access promise is intentionally vague. Agreements like this made in such an ambiguous manner (give us some money now, and we promise, in a REASONABLE time frame to deliver a FEATURE FULL product) are destined for confusion. The caps are the things up for interpretation. How long is reasonable? If the Hornet is in EA for 10 years, are you ok with that? How about 5? 2? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, where do the devs draw the line? What is feature full? How many bugs or missing features are permitted to call the product "complete"?

None of these things are fully defined, and so all of the repeat questions you see in these forums are directed to these areas. It is not unreasonable to ask what's going on. We were told Hornet development would not be slowed by Viper development. That turned out to be wrong. So that means things have changed, the timelines are different, and your investment becomes ever murkier. Remember, you paid a slightly discounted rate to get into EA in contemplation of a full product. You have every right to wonder when and how that full product is delivered.

I, for one, never jump in to initial EA. It just doesn't suit me. I usually set a milestone I would like to see, then hold off until that feature is stable. For me, that DLZ's for JDAMS and SLAM-ER weapons. That will give me an accurate representation of a mission type and capability not possessed by any other DCS aircraft.

If the JF17 comes out first, I will buy that and wait for the Hornet to have AG radar modes before purchasing. It's arbitrary, but I've set the limit of what I'm comfortable with having for about a 1 yr period before the next major feature releases. Not saying you should all do what I do, but just throwing my thought process out there.

Snappy · 11-08-2019, 08:47 AM

Very glad to see some of the more reasonable , balanced and sane posts above, instead of usual reflexive „It‘s EA, don‘t buy if you don‘t get it and btw you have abandoned any right to question or criticize“ quickdraw drivel.

Can only hope ED slowly gets it.

Regards,

Snappy

kaoqumba · 11-08-2019, 09:41 AM

"In the future, all modules will be completed!" I have no doubt about that. Because ED is a great company! But how long do we have to wait? No one knows and can't answer. But deep down, we still want someone to answer this question. Since its release, Dahuang peak has been developing and adding new weapons and functions, but it may still take many years to complete. If time can go back to the past, I will never buy any EA stage products. Except for products close to completion like jf17 and F14, because such products, even if not updated for a long time, have high playability and rich content. Don't have to wait long

Arctander · 11-08-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snappy

Very glad to see some of the more reasonable , balanced and sane posts above, instead of usual reflexive „It‘s EA, don‘t buy if you don‘t get it and btw you have abandoned any right to question or criticize“ quickdraw drivel.

Can only hope ED slowly gets it.

Regards,

Snappy

Indeed, it appears to be a bit of a sea change where this type of reasonable, balanced and sane responses to concerns by other members of the community are now the majority, not the minority.

I also hope ED gets it, but quickly, not slowly!

GrEaSeLiTeNiN · 11-08-2019, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LastRifleRound

The Early Access promise is intentionally vague. Agreements like this made in such an ambiguous manner (give us some money now, and we promise, in a REASONABLE time frame to deliver a FEATURE FULL product) are destined for confusion. The caps are the things up for interpretation. How long is reasonable? If the Hornet is in EA for 10 years, are you ok with that? How about 5? 2? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, where do the devs draw the line? What is feature full? How many bugs or missing features are permitted to call the product "complete"?

None of these things are fully defined, and so all of the repeat questions you see in these forums are directed to these areas. It is not unreasonable to ask what's going on. We were told Hornet development would not be slowed by Viper development. That turned out to be wrong. So that means things have changed, the timelines are different, and your investment becomes ever murkier. Remember, you paid a slightly discounted rate to get into EA in contemplation of a full product. You have every right to wonder when and how that full product is delivered.

Exactly what I've been saying from day 1. There is simply no proper regulation. Different interpretations, ambiguity, different expectations, no deadlines (even movable ones are fair enough) to drive project prioritisation and completion, etc. Those who put their full trust in EA/ED seemingly with no regard for outcome, cannot expect all other paying customers to think the same and knock them if they don't. It's the real world of transactions, not DCS world. Where money has been paid for a promised to be completed product, the owner (yes) of that product definitely has some say in these things. "But it's an EA" would have been a more reasonable excuse if a timeline with estimated dates had been given. But now it's wide open for interpretation and debate. Deadlines are not just for accountability but help drive project completion. But since there is no clarity, regulation or enforcement, buyers just have to learn from experience and decide if they want to put money down on the next EA.

Airhunter · 11-08-2019, 11:50 AM

I'd be surprised if we see TWS, INS or any core system improvements to the Hornet this year.

Baco · 11-08-2019, 12:03 PM

They moved on to the Cobra

Jokes a part, It is a valid concern. More defined milestones would alleviate concerns maybe.
As long as they stick to them of course...

And Yes I understand Software planning is not a precise science, still every developer outside gaming gets to stick to a certain time table.

Outlaw24 · 11-08-2019, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airhunter

I'd be surprised if we see TWS, INS or any core system improvements to the Hornet this year.

I agree at the current progression rate and the up coming holidays maybe Q1, 2020.

norbot · 11-08-2019, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by probad

great, everyone's a manager

Yes, even a facility manager is a manager. In Germany janitors call themselves "facility manager" lately...

11-08-2019, 08:47 AM	#43
Snappy Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 139	Very glad to see some of the more reasonable , balanced and sane posts above, instead of usual reflexive „It‘s EA, don‘t buy if you don‘t get it and btw you have abandoned any right to question or criticize“ quickdraw drivel. Can only hope ED slowly gets it. Regards, Snappy Last edited by Snappy; 11-08-2019 at 08:50 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-08-2019, 08:35 AM	#42
LastRifleRound Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 317	The Early Access promise is intentionally vague. Agreements like this made in such an ambiguous manner (give us some money now, and we promise, in a REASONABLE time frame to deliver a FEATURE FULL product) are destined for confusion. The caps are the things up for interpretation. How long is reasonable? If the Hornet is in EA for 10 years, are you ok with that? How about 5? 2? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, where do the devs draw the line? What is feature full? How many bugs or missing features are permitted to call the product "complete"? None of these things are fully defined, and so all of the repeat questions you see in these forums are directed to these areas. It is not unreasonable to ask what's going on. We were told Hornet development would not be slowed by Viper development. That turned out to be wrong. So that means things have changed, the timelines are different, and your investment becomes ever murkier. Remember, you paid a slightly discounted rate to get into EA in contemplation of a full product. You have every right to wonder when and how that full product is delivered. I, for one, never jump in to initial EA. It just doesn't suit me. I usually set a milestone I would like to see, then hold off until that feature is stable. For me, that DLZ's for JDAMS and SLAM-ER weapons. That will give me an accurate representation of a mission type and capability not possessed by any other DCS aircraft. If the JF17 comes out first, I will buy that and wait for the Hornet to have AG radar modes before purchasing. It's arbitrary, but I've set the limit of what I'm comfortable with having for about a 1 yr period before the next major feature releases. Not saying you should all do what I do, but just throwing my thought process out there.

11-08-2019, 09:41 AM	#44
kaoqumba Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 356	"In the future, all modules will be completed!" I have no doubt about that. Because ED is a great company! But how long do we have to wait? No one knows and can't answer. But deep down, we still want someone to answer this question. Since its release, Dahuang peak has been developing and adding new weapons and functions, but it may still take many years to complete. If time can go back to the past, I will never buy any EA stage products. Except for products close to completion like jf17 and F14, because such products, even if not updated for a long time, have high playability and rich content. Don't have to wait long

11-08-2019, 11:50 AM	#47
Airhunter Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 729	I'd be surprised if we see TWS, INS or any core system improvements to the Hornet this year.

11-08-2019, 12:03 PM	#48
Baco Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 561	They moved on to the Cobra Jokes a part, It is a valid concern. More defined milestones would alleviate concerns maybe. As long as they stick to them of course... And Yes I understand Software planning is not a precise science, still every developer outside gaming gets to stick to a certain time table.